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(Witness: Hill.)

priced people, whereas in most of the scientific bureaus the lump fund includes some of their highest-priced men.

I think it is only fair to my people to present that consideration.

The CHAIRMAN. So that those salaries, whatever their size may be, are statutory salaries?

Mr. HILL. They are statutory salaries. The CHAIRMAN. And their fixing does not involve the discretion of the Department. Do you have any difficulty in getting sufficient personnel for your Division?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; we have found the Civil Service Commission quite adequate to filling the better class of places, the good clerkships, and in the case of my editorial assistants they generally allow me to draw up an examination. All of my editorial assistants have come in through the civil service as the result of an examination which I have prepared myself, and the only difficulty we have is in the very, very low-priced places—skilled laborers, as they are called.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand that you have already been over this matter.

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. When the salary is $50 and less there is a little trouble, which, I think, comes largely from the apportionment to the different States.

The CHAIRMAN. What is that-$50 a month?

Mr. HILL. Where it is $50 a month or less. It is a great nuisance to have to "buy a pig in a poke ” and send to Alabama or Mississippi or Tennessee or Oregon to offer people $40 or $50 a month as skilled laborers.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to make any further statement with reference to the commercial utility of the work of your Division?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I think not. I think I have said as much as my modesty will permit about that. I am very much obliged to you for your kind hearing, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We are greatly obliged to you, Mr. Hill.
(The committee thereupon took a recess until 2 o'clock p. m.)

OFFICE OF EXPERIMENT STATIONS.

COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE,

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

Thursday, January 24, 1907. The committee met at 10.45 a. m. Present: Hon. Charles E. Littlefield (chairman) in the chair, and Hon. E. W. Samuel. STATEMENT OF DR. A. C. TRUE, DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF

EXPERIMENT STATIONS, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE.

(Doctor True was sworn by the chairman.)

The CHAIRMAN. You are the Director of the Office of Experiment Stations?

Doctor TRUE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the nature of the duties that you discharge, Doctor?

Doctor True. I have charge of an office which was established primarily to represent the Secretary of Agriculture in his relations with the agricultural colleges and experiment stations under the acts of Congress of 1862, 1887, and 1890. Since that time, through special legislation, we have been directly charged with the management of agricultural experiment stations in Alaska, Hawaii, and Porto Rico, and also with the management of certain special investigations ordered by Congress and assigned to us by the Secretary. These are on two general lines: First, an investigation on human food and nutrition, and, second, an investigation on irrigation and drainage.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you keep in touch with the various State experiment stations.

Doctor TRUE. Yes; we keep in close touch with them.

The CHAIRMAN. How many other bureaus of the Department of Agriculture are conducting experiments in collaboration with the experiment stations ?

Doctor TRUE. Several of the bureaus.

The CHAIRMAN. The Bureau of Plant Industry and the Bureau of Animal Industry?

Doctor TRUE. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. And the Bureau of Soils?
Doctor TRUE. The Bureau of Soils and the Bureau of Entomology.
The CHAIRMAN. There are four.
Doctor TRUE. And the Bureau of Chemistry.
The CHAIRMAN. There are five. All these five bureaus are con-

(Witness: True.)

ducting experimental work with the State experiment stations upon their own account, as I understand it?

Doctor TRUE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, why is it necessary to have the experimental work at those stations under the charge of an independent representative of the Department? Do you have charge of these five people that represent these other bureaus?

Doctor TRUE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is your line of investigation independent of theirs?

Doctor TRUE. Yes. We do an entirely different kind of work in its relation to the stations generally. It is our business to supervise the expenditure of the funds given to the stations under the act of Congress of 1887, and now under the act of Congress of 1906, and to give those stations such general advice and assistance as we may to promote their interests. We also collect their publications, and on the basis of those we issue publications, both technical and popular, for general distribution throughout the country. The object of our publication is that the people in all the States may become acquainted with the experiments that are carried on by the stations in any one State.

The CHAIRMAN. Are those publications United States Government publications?

Doctor True. United States Government publications. That is, the stations

The CHAIRMAN. Have literature of their own?
Doctor TRUE. Yes; which they distribute in the States, principally.
The Chairman. That is a sort of advisory and supervisory work!
Doctor True. Yes; that is our function.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you visit these institutions?
Doctor TRUE. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Personally?
Doctor TRUE. Yes,

The CHAIRMAN. Are the duties of these five men who are there representing these other bureaus of such a character that it requires, in order to effectively carry on that work, the presence of the five representatives they have there?

Doctor True. I did not quite understand your statement regarding five men. I said that these five bureaus engaged in work in connection with the experiment stations.

The CHAIRMAN. Each does not necessarily have a man there!
Doctor TRUE. Oh, no.

The CHAIRMAN. Working in harmony with the station all the time?

Doctor True. No, sir. I simply meant by that that they cooperate with the stations in various enterprises. For instance, if the Bureau of Plant Industry is carrying on experiments in the introduction of a new variety of wheat, they may make arrangements with a dozen or twenty experiment stations in different parts of the country to test that wheat. Then the bureau may at certain times send one of its representatives there to see what progress is being made, notice the results, and in that way collect the results for the whole country for publication.

(Witnesses: True, Zappone.)

The CHAIRMAN. So that their representatives are not continuously employed at the respective stations?

Doctor TRUE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Éxcept as they have particular work that they are doing?

Doctor TRUE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it be possible to have all the experimental work conducted by the Department of Agriculture under your supervision, for instance, or is it necessary to have these various bureaus each represented on its own particular lines and working, in a sense, independently of each other

Doctor TRUE. I think our present system is the desirable one.

The CHAIRMAN. Why could they not be combined? Just give your reasons, if there are any?

Doctor True. My reason is this, that the Department of Agriculture, acting as a central organization, can oftentimes take up questions of large general import and carry them on more successfully than any individual station would carry them on. Now, in order to do that, it is necessary, I think, that we should have a bureau organization along the different lines of agriculture and experts connected with those bureaus who are familiar with the special lines of work in a broad way, and they can come in and supplement the work of the experiment stations and thus make a stronger enterprise.

If the management of that work were turned over to the Office of Experiment Stations, it would mean, of course, that the Office would absorb a large share of the work which the Department is doing.

Mr. ZAPPONE. It is purely scientific work in the other bureaus?

Doctor TRUE. Yes; and it would change entirely the character of our work. It does not seem to me that it would be feasible or desirable.

The CHAIRMÁN. On what lines is your advisory and consulting work directed—that is, what lines of investigation? Do you advise in connection with all the work of the experiment stations, or are you confined largely to some lines of investigation ?

Doctor TRUE. They ask our advice on all sorts of matters; on any matter connected with their work.

The CHAIRMAN. Then there are five bureaus that are collaborating with the State experiment stations on their five independent lines, and you are likely to be consulted by the State experiment stations in regard to those questions?

Doctor TRUE. We may be; yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Is that the fact, in your experience ?
Doctor TRUE. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. That you are so consulted ?

Doctor TRUE. Yes. But in such cases we either consult with the bureau immediately concerned, or refer the matter altogether to that bureau.

The CHAIRMAN. Your advisory and consulting capacity embraces the whole scope of the experiment stations, does it not?

Doctor TRUE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that involve any duplication of work by way of revising or examining work done by other representatives of the Department of Agriculture who are collaborating with them?

(Witnesses: True, Zappone.)

Does it involve any duplication of work that is being done by you and your Bureau ?

Doctor TRUE. No, sir; I do not think it does, because we examine the work of the stations in a different way.

The CHAIRMAN. From what point of view, then, do you examine this?

Doctor TRUE. We examine in a more general way. For example, if the Bureau of Plant Industry is conducting investigations regarding varieties of wheat at a station, their expert would go there and examine that work in detail with reference to that particular undertaking. Our representative would go and make inquiry in general regarding the work that was thus being done, whether it was satisfactory to the station and whether it was producing results. We would also inquire what relation that work had, with regard to the matter of expenditure, to the expenditure of the funds directly given to the station under Federal law.

The CHAIRMAN. Of these investigations, as I infer from what you have to say, one is intensive and the other' is extensive?

Doctor True. Ours is general and advisory.

The CHAIRMAN. One is included under the title of “intensive" and the other is extensive?

Doctor TRUE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Why can not the man who makes the intensive or detailed examination carry it out in a general way and do the whole thing?

Doctor True. Because he would not be prepared to undertake such work as a rule; he would be simply a specialist and would not be acquainted with the general business of the station or with the business of our office.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any reason why he could not be acquainted with it? Why could he not have that information? Of course I do not know what the practical conditions are, but why could not one man have both these lines of information, and develop along both those lines of investigation and thus save expense?

Doctor True. Because that would be too great an undertaking, I should say.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, you think it would not be possible for one man to undertake to be informed on the two branches of investigation

Doctor TRUE. No, sir; not in the way in which it is desirable to have it done.

The CHAIRMAN. Your work, then, supplements the work done by the other investigator?

Doctor TRUE. In a sense that is so; but, of course, to understand what is the real case we would have to go more into details of the actual operations of the stations in connection with my office.

Mr. ZAPPONE. Is it not a matter of fact, Doctor True, that the experiment stations communicate direct with the other bureaus named in their cooperation work?

Doctor TRUE. Yes.

Mr. ZAPPONE. And that your duties are only supervisory as regards that work?

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