(Witnesses: Hill, Zappone.) The ACTING CHAIRMAN. In what way? Mr. HILL. I think it brings about a more universal effort. I hesitate in saying that, because they are such good fellows, anyway; they are doing their very best. But I think a horse does better if he has his oats, although he may be a very willing horse and be doing pretty 'well without quite sufficient rations. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Then you think that the men do not receive sufficient salaries? Mr. HILL. My most responsible men do not; no, sir. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You are in no position to advance their salaries? Mr. HILL. No, sir. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Under a division? Mr. HILL. That is, I think that it would be easier to get slightly better salaries for them if they were themselves division chiefs. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. In what way would they get better salaries? Mr. HILL. The average salaries paid to division chiefs are higher than the salaries paid to them now. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. There is no provision in the division organization for giving those same salaries even for performing the same work? Mr. HILL. No; it is difficult to get. It is easier to get a better salary for an officer than it is for a clerk. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. If you were made a bureau would it change the positions of those men from clerks to officers? Mr. HILL. Yes; they are practically officers, but it would confirm them as officers. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. It would not change the character of the work they perform? Mr. HILL. It would not change the character of the work they perform. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. But they would not have any more to perform, would they? Mr. HILL. Nor any more to perform. If we need extra help we need it, whether it is as a division or a bureau. We have to do the work. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Is there anything in the laws that favors bureaus in preference to divisions? Mr. HILL. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. Mr. ZAPPONE. The law favors it when the organization is largethat is, when the office is large and should be broken up into divisions for better administrative purposes. I think that is the way that that originally started in the Department of Agriculture. The first large office, now the Bureau of Animal Industry, was made a bureau for the purpose of better administration of that office. It was necessary to divide the work into divisions. That was followed by the Weather Bureau, which in that case was transferred to the Agricultural Department from the War Department. It had a bureau organization when it was transferred. It was then believed that the bureau formation or organization for the entire Department would result in benefit to the Department in an administrative way. The work in those two bureaus was so efficiently done that there was every reason (Witnesses: Hill, Zappone.) to feel that the bureau organization was the logical organization for a scientific department like the Department of Agriculture; and as the other divisions grew in importance they were gradually made bureaus by Congress. It is the hope, and I might say the wish, of the Department of Agriculture that ultimately it will be a department of bureaus, so that instead of having a great many division chiefs reporting to the Secretary and taking up much of his valuable time, which is needed for other lines of work, he will only have to deal with bureau chiefs; and naturally they will be limited in number. Mr. HILL. It has made a great deal of difference in his work already, as far as it has gone. Mr. ZAPPONE. That is true. It has made a great difference. Mr. HILL. He used to have something like twenty-six or twentyeight people going to him constantly. Mr. ZAPPONE. And it has centralized the authority under a few heads, instead of having so many employees acting independently, and coming for instructions to the Secretary's office. Mr. HILL. If I may be allowed to use an illustration, it would be like asking a lieutenant-general to conduct the affairs of a great army division or of any army corps with no brigadiers or majors-general between himself and the colonels-having to deal directly with the colonels, all of whom would report to him. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. There is no one in your division who is compelled to see the Secretary except yourself, is there? Mr. HILL. No; the division chief is usually The ACTING CHAIRMAN. So it would not change that relationship in your division? Mr. HILL. It would not change it in that particular case. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. It would be rather more a matter of dignity and increase of salary than anything else, would it not? Mr. HILL. Well, you always do work better if you have a machine adapted to it. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. HILL. Although you can very often accomplish the work with a machine not as well adapted to it. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. HILL. But it involves more friction and more effort. My feeling is that in the number of persons employed, in the responsibilities assumed or devolving upon me, and the amount of expenditures which the division controls, I am doing a bureau's work, and these men, my four or five principal lieutenants, are doing the work of chiefs of division, and that the machinery of a bureau would be better adapted to my present necessities. When I began this work I began with a force of three people, all told. Two independent divisions have since been merged into my division-one the folding room and one the division of illustrations; but we have always remained a division, and these former divisions have been lowered to the grade of sections of a division. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. In other words, you feel as if you ought to be placed on a level with others who are not doing any more work than you? (Witnesses: Hill, Zappone.) Mr. HILL. Or more responsible work. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Yes; or more responsible work. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. I do not know but what that is right, too. Mr. ZAPPONE. Mr. Chairman, if you have finished discussing that particular subject, I would like to return to the subject of editors in the other bureaus, and ask Mr. Hill to answer the question I put to him while that matter was under discussion, as it will clear up the record to some extent. The question I asked was whether it is not true that some of the editors in one or two of the different bureaus, in addition to their editorial functions, perform scientific work, or duties of a miscellaneous or occasional character in no way related to or connected with editing notably in the Office of Experiment Stations. which I named at that time. For instance, there is a Mr. Beal, chief of the division of editing in that office. He is the gentleman that Doctor True referred to as assisting him in examining the financial accounts of the various State experiment stations all over the country. They divide up in a way on this inspection work. I think that possibly in another bureau the conditions are the same, but I am not sufficiently familiar with it to make a statement, and I would therefore like Mr. Hill to tell us about that. Mr. HILL. It would be a little difficult for me to answer that question. Mr. ZAPPONE. In a general way, if you please. Mr. HILL. My impression is that there is a good deal of work devolving upon these gentlemen, assigned to them by the chief, which is apart from the actual editing. At the same time, the intention in the appointment of these men was that while being paid by the Bureau where they were employed, they should be regarded as my men, helping me in my work. They are supposed to study the character of our work, and to assist us by bringing their bulletins as far as possible into line with our requirements before we get them. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. By your direction, or by their chief's direction? Mr. HILL. It ought to be by my direction; and some of them do that. I can think of one man now that always comes to us, when he is in any quandary, for us to decide on everything except those few things that relate particularly to his chief's views. Mr. ZAPPONE. Take the case of Mr. Beal: Have you not knowledge of the fact that he is a scientific investigator, and assists Doctor True on this experiment-station work? Mr. HILL. Oh, yes; you might call him an inspector of stations to a certain extent. Mr. ZAPPONE. That is what I wished you to say, Mr. Hill, because I know it to be the fact that he is a scientific investigator. Mr. HILL. I have understood that both Doctor Allen and Mr. Beal, particularly, do a great deal of that work. Mr. ZAPPONE. This shows that their duties are not confined exclusively to editing. This is the point that I wish to bring out. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have any of the editors or associate editors in your division any other kind of work to perform? (Witnesses: Hill, Zappone.) Mr. HILL. My first assistant has a good deal of supervisory work besides editing. In fact, half or perhaps more than half of his work is of a supervisory character. We have a very busy office. When I tell you that we handled last year 6,400 separate requisitions for printing work, you will see that our office must be busy, with a great many people coming to it. A great many of them come to me; but my assistant tries to dispose of all the routine cases, and it keeps him pretty busy. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You have three assistant editors, one at $1,800 and two at $1,600. What is the difference in the character of their work? Mr. HILL. The man at $1,800 is practically the chief of the indexing section. He has special charge of that. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What is the work of the two $1,600 men? Mr. HILL. They are just assistant editors. There are three at $1,600. There is an editorial clerk at $1,600 and two assistant editors at $1,600; and they ought to be all made assistant editors. Their work is similar. The editorial clerk at $1,400 also does practically the same work, but he is the new man. We bring a man in at that figure. It is the "entrance salary," as it were, to our editorial force. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Your chief clerk, I presume, has the same duties as those other chief clerks? Mr. HILL. Yes; and they are pretty arduous, because it gives just as much trouble to a chief clerk to look after 100 cheap people as it does to look after 100 dear people: and while our salary expense is comparatively small, the salary list is very large. We have a very large number of employees. Mr. ZAPPONE. I would like to add that in addition to his duties as chief clerk he also audits the accounts of that division. I know that the accounts come to my office in the most excellent condition. Mr. HILL. Thank you, Mr. Zappone. Mr. ZAPPONE. He is a very superior man. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have you any clerks in your division that are employed in any other Department or bureau? Mr. HILL. Occasionally there is a detail to the Secretary's office, which is the only thing that is permitted us by law, if I mistake not. Mr. ZAPPONE. I think the chairman means in other branches of the Government service, at additional compensation. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have you any employees in any other branch of the service? Mr. HILL. Oh, no, sir; no, sir. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have you ever had any? Mr. HILL. Never. I once employed a man, in ignorance, who was holding a position in another place, but he was not getting any pay there. He was a per diem man, and he was laid off; but the auditor held that I had no business to do so. That is the only time I have ever had such a case. He was a man who was not receiving compensation elsewhere. He held a commission from the other concern, but his compensation was so much a day when actually at work, and he was not actually at work when I employed him. That is the only case of the kind. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. It was a violation that was not a viola (Witnesses: Hill, Zappone.) Mr. HILL. I do not think it was a violation myself. I think if Mr. Zappone had been the auditor there would have been no trouble. Mr. ZAPPONE. Those matters have to be watched very closely in our Department, Mr. Chairman, on account of that law, which pertains exclusively to our Department; and our auditors sometimes hew pretty close to the line, because we do not want to run the risk of a disallowance by the Treasury Department. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are any of those persons employed on the outside? Mr. HILL. Occasionally a man is allowed, on application, to do a little outside work of the character I will describe. He is obliged to apply; he is not allowed to take any work, even of the most temporary character, without applying for permission, and its acceptance has to be recommended by me and referred to the Secretary, where it involves any compensation. It is very rarely-I do not think it has happened more than a dozen times since that rule was established-that we have had to make an application of that kind. One of my men assists his wife in running a little publication occasionally; but we do not allow them to assume any responsibility outside of our office. For instance, one of our artists did some heraldic work, painted some china for a man; but he did it just temporarily, during his evenings. We would not have allowed him. to undertake a contract for any such work. We would not, for instance, allow a man to read proof for a publication that came out regularly. One of my men had a proposition made to him to assist in the proof reading of a publication of some consequence; and he consulted me, and I advised him against it. I said: "You will be having two masters." Said I: "If you simply wanted to go two or three evenings and help a man who got behind with a little job of proof reading, I would make no objection; but this is assuming a steady responsibility, and I think it would be unwise." The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do those editors write articles for journals and periodicals outside of the Division? Mr. HILL. Sometimes, but very rarely. I have done it myself on rare occasions; perhaps half a dozen times in twelve years. One of my editors, my first assistant, recently brought me a little article of about six pages of typewriting which he had prepared, and wanted my approval of it, as it related to the business of the Department. He was proposing to contribute it without remuneration, however, simply to help out a space writer, a syndicate writer, who had asked him for some notes from which to prepare an article. He got into it, and wrote an article which was so good that the syndicate writer wanted to use it as it stood. That is all. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You censor all articles that are written outside of the Bureau, do you? Mr. HILL. The rule of the Department, not only in my division, but in all of them, is that any departmental matter that is discussed by a man for publication must be submitted by him to his chief, whether he gets compensation for it or not, and whether he has special permission or not. If I were to write an article upon the meat-inspection work, I would feel bound to show it to Doctor Melvin, and not publish it unless Doctor Melvin said, "That is all right." That is your understanding, is is not, Mr. Zappone? |