(Witness: Hill.)

Mr. HILL. Two or three of my men have looked it up.
The CHAIRMAN. When?

Mr. HILL. Within the past two years.

The CHAIRMAN. Why could you not take that index of hers, if it is not sufficient in detail, and use it as the foundation of a more detailed and elaborate index, and thus save work?

Mr. HILL. Hers is made, as I understand it, on a totally different basis from ours.

The CHAIRMAN. You have never looked it up yourself?

Mr. HILL. I have never looked it up myself.

The CHAIRMAN. How far along have you gotten in it? You have been working on it about a year, you say.?

Mr. HILL. About a year. I have not had help enough.

The CHAIRMAN. How near through are you?

Mr. HILL. We are indexing everything as it comes in, and that work is practically up to date.

The CHAIRMAN. That is current work?

Mr. HILL. That is current work. At the same time we are working backward.

The CHAIRMAN. How near have you got your publications indexed?

Mr. HILL. I think we have something like twelve or thirteen thousand entries.

The CHAIRMAN. But what percentage of the accumulation does that index? Have you any idea?

Mr. HILL. Oh, I think it can not be more than a fourth of it. That is a very vague estimate.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, certainly; that is an approximation.

Mr. HILL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, as we understand it, the index, which is a card index-that is the kind you are making, I suppose?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. As we understand it, there is a complete card index-just how detailed I do not know, because we do not examine into that in detail-but there is a complete card index of all that material in the library of the Department. Would it not be a good idea for you to examine that yourself, carefully, and see whether it does not furnish a basis for saving a good deal of work?

Mr. HILL. Yes; I think it would. It is the first I have heard of the existence of a complete index. I thought there was a sort of index catalogue of all the publications of the Department, but as I understood it, the matter in the publications was not indexed.

The CHAIRMAN. We may be in error about that, but I think it would be a good idea for you to confer with her.

Mr. HILL. I think it would: yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course if the work that she has already done, which has cost a large sum of money, while not going sufficiently into detail, would furnish a foundation, there is no reason why you should not take that and build on it.

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; that is right.

The CHAIRMAN. You will do that, will you?
Mr. HILL. Yes, indeed.

(Witness: Hill.)

The CHAIRMAN. Now, what else besides indexing and the other work you have mentioned does your Division do?

Mr. HILL. Then there is the distribution of documents. We housed and sorted and redistributed something like 13,000,000 copies

last year.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the mailing?

Mr. HILL. That is the mailing. The Members of Congress got nearly 6,000,000 farmers' bulletins from us.

The CHAIRMAN. Are all these people that you have on your list of expenditures, pages 254 and 255, except the editorial workers and the indexers, engaged in that distribution?

Mr. HILL. I also have my bookkeepers. I have a very considerable office, and of course I have to keep accounts of the printing fund. The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. HILL. In addition to the lump fund, which I keep in a measure. Mr. Zappone knows just what proportion of that belongs to the division, what is expected of them, and what is done in his own office. But I keep an account myself of the amount expended from the printing fund that is appropriated to the Public Printer for our use.

The CHAIRMAN. That is to say, the work done by the Printing Office in printing your publications?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And charged to your Department?

Mr. HILL. And charged to the printing fund of the Department. The CHAIRMAN. And you keep an account of that and the material

sent out?

Mr. HILL. I keep a ledger account with every bureau, so as to see just what each bureau is spending, what the printing of each bureau is costing, and then I keep an account with the Public Printer.

The CHAIRMAN. And are you able, by that account, to determine the public utility of various bulletins and the demand therefor, indicating whether there should be a large or a small edition, or a continuation of publication?

Mr. HILL. I do not base that so much on the amount. My sole effort in limiting the amount is to be as careful and as economical as possible, to spend as little as possible. But when it comes to the question of the edition, I have each chief, when he presents a manuscript for publication, present also a scheme of distribution, showing what he wants to do with it, how he wants it distributed and to whom. We make up a scheme of distribution together, and then we allow a few hundred for miscellaneous demands, and we limit the editions of their publications in that way. The Public Printer keeps the plates for a certain length of time, so that in case of necessity, if there should be a run on a publication greater than was contemplated when it was issued, it is a very easy and simple thing to get a reprint. But lately we have been referring a great many of the applicants for the more technical bulletins of the Department to the superintendent of documents, who keeps them for sale. Of course we continue to distribute free the farmers' bulletins and circulars.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is the office of the superintendent of documents?

Mr. HILL. In the Government Printing Office.

(Witness: Hill.)

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes; he has charge there?

Mr. HILL. He has charge of that, and the printing law says that all surplus publications in our hands shall be turned over to him.

The CHAIRMAN. And under that you have practically no accumulations now?

Mr. HILL. We have comparatively few accumulations. There are sometimes a few that he is not able to receive. Until lately he was not able to receive them; he had no place to put them.

The CHAIRMAN. How much storage capacity do you have to have for those that he is not able to take care of?

Mr. HILL. The accumulation would go into a couple of rooms of this size-less than that.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is practically continuous?

Mr. HILL. But of course there is a great deal more room required for the handling-for the coming in of new matter and its outgo. The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything else besides the distribution of public documents and your bookkeeping?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That covers the whole ground?

Mr. HILL. When I tried to induce our committee to make the division a bureau, because it had outgrown its division formation, I submitted a scheme which contemplated four divisions-an editorial division, an illustration division, an indexing division, and a distribution division.

The CHAIRMAN. Why is it that you can not accomplish all these results in the division form of organization as well as in the bureau form?

Mr. HILL. We are doing it, as a matter of fact.

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Mr. HILL. But I do not think we are doing it quite as well. I think that the men who have the responsibility of division chiefs ought to have the pay and emoluments and the standing of division chiefs.

The CHAIRMAN. The point about it, then, is that under the existing conditions they do not get the compensation they would get under the bureau form of organization?

Mr. HILL. I do not think they do, and I do not think they get enough.

The CHAIRMAN. Does not the Government get just as much service now as it would then?

Mr. HILL. Yes; I suppose it does.

The CHAIRMAN. Then it would simply cost the Government so much more to go into a bureau form of organization, and it would get no more results?

Mr. HILL. But I think it is only fair that a man should be adequately paid for his work; that "the laborer is worthy of his hire.” I think that a man who attains a certain degree of competence and assumes a certain degree of responsibility, or has it put upon him, ought to be paid accordingly.

The CHAIRMAN. We agree with you on that, but is it not the better way to take up that proposition and determine it on the basis of the value of the services he renders, rather than to go into the form

(Witness: Hill.)

of bureau organization, and indirectly get the result that ought to be obtained directly?

Mr. HILL. I have tried to obtain it directly as well, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Very true, but is not that the better way? Then we will know exactly what we are doing.

Mr. HILL. But I think it would be a help to me in performing the duties that I have-it certainly would be a help to me if I were a bureau chief dealing with bureau chiefs instead of a division chief dealing with bureau chiefs. It may be absurd, but there is a good deal of the hierarchal feeling.

The CHAIRMAN. To a certain extent not exactly, but parallel to, the matter of uniform?

Mr. HILL. A little; not exactly. The man with three stars does not like to be checked by the man with two stars.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be natural, although not laudable. Mr. HILL. It is natural; yes. I do not know that it is laudable, but I merely referred to that as showing that I cover the work.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I am very glad to get your views, because we have had one or two changes from divisions to bureaus, and while I do not express any opinion now as to the situation. I will say that apparently the increase of salaries was the most obvious element involved in the change.

Mr. HILL. I feel just this way, sir: That our regiment has become a brigade, and that it ought to be brigaded. We employ from 160 to 165 people. We have an appropriation, apart from the printing fund (which is entirely under my charge), in the new bill of $180,000 or thereabouts. I can not remember now; they have taken the Farmers' Bulletin and put it into the printing fund, but we have a printing fund of $460,000 that we have to administer, and I am perfectly free to say that I think it would be easier to get the pay that is commensurate with the services of my principal men, the men upon whom I depend largely, and who enable me to perform the work as satisfactorily as I trust I am doing it, if they were chiefs of divisions in a bureau than as subordinates of a chief of division themselves. I did not ask for any increase of pay for myself when I asked them to make my Division a bureau. I left that to the Secretarv.

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps you might have inferred that that would naturally come.

Mr. HILL. I am perfectly honest when I say that I did not think about that. I wanted to get my Division put upon the plane where I thought it belonged. I feel just like a boy that has grown too big for short pants, and still is wearing short pants.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. In other words, you take pride in your work, and you want to get it up on at least the same sentimental level or departmental level that other people occupy. That is a laudable ambition.

Mr. HILL. And I would be very grateful to be able to do better for these splendid fellows that I have, for I have as fine a force of men as there is to be found anywhere-a first-class force: fellows who do extra work and never grumble, and who sacrifice their leaves and never grumble, and who have intelligence, and who have common sense, which is very necessary in editing work, and who have lots

(Witnesses: Hill, Zappone.)

of tact, which is very necessary in dealing with scientific men, and who have a thorough experience with and knowledge of bookmaking,

The CHAIRMAN. You spent about $140,000 during this last fiscal year. How much of that was spent, roughly speaking, in simply distributing these publications? That is, what percentage of it, should you say?

Mr. HILL. I think there are about 120 people engaged in the distribution, and that their salaries will average something like $720 to $800.

The CHAIRMAN. No; I mean the proportion of your whole expenditure that is involved.

Mr. HILL. I am trying to get at it in that way.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes; I see.

Mr. HILL. I should put it at about $90,000.

(At this point Mr. Samuel took the chair as acting chairman.) Mr. ZAPPONE. Mr. Chairman, I would like to correct the record in regard to the total amount of the appropriations for the Division of Publications. The total amount was $246,620, and the total expenditures during the fiscal year 1906 were $244,628.02, leaving a balance to be turned back into the Treasury of $1,991.98. Mr. HILL. That is the total?

Mr. ZAPPONE.. That is the total. That covers the statutory salaries and all expenses outside of the fund that the Public Printer controls.

Mr. HILL. And that includes the Farmers' Bulletins?

Mr. ZAPPONE. And that includes the Farmers' Bulletins; yes, sir. Everything that you have supervision of is included, except the fund controlled by the Public Printer.

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Mr. ZAPPONE. And appropriated to his Office.

Mr. HILL. For our use.

Mr. ZAPPONE. For your use.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Approximately speaking, how much of an increase in the expense of your Division would occur if it was changed from a division into a bureau?

Mr. HILL. On the basis of last year, it would probably involve an additional expense of about $15,000.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. That would only affect the salaries of some of the higher officials?

Mr. HILL. That is all.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Would it increase the force necessarily? Mr. HILL. No, sir. We will need a little increase of force anyway, and the committee have agreed to give it to me in their present bill; and it would not involve more than two or three thousand dollars more than they have agreed to give me.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. It would not necessarily increase the force?

Mr. HILL. It would not increase the force at all.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Would it affect the efficiency of the force materially?

Mr. HILL. I think everything that tends to build up the bureau and to afford fair remuneration to the most responsible men is helpful toward efficiency.