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(Witnesses: Wiley, Zappone.)

Mr. ZAPPONE. That was a matter of administration. The Secretary no doubt had good reasons for putting it under the Bureau of Soils.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a question, of course, that is open for us to inquire into.

Mr. ZAPPONE. Yes, sir; certainly. Mr. SAMUEL. Do you know what prompted the change? Doctor Wiley. I do not know that, excepting the general evolution of the Department.

The CHAIRMAN. Was the personnel of your department decreased any when the Bureau of Soils was created ?

Doctor Wiley. At the time of the creating of the Bureau of Soils Congress had given us a special appropriation of $3,000 for special investigations in soils, and for several years after the Division of Soils was created Congress continued that authority. We did, under that authority, up to 1901 continue the investigation of certain problems in soil chemistry. Up to that time, from the time when the Soil Division was first established, it had no chemical laboratory, and the chemical work that was done for the Division was done in our laboratory, so there was no duplication of the work. Doctor Cameron, who is now chief of that laboratory, was appointed as adviser in chemistry to the Chief of the Bureau of Soils and was assigned to our laboratory and did a year's work there. Then they decided to establish their own laboratory, so they took him away. That was the only diminution; he was the only one taken away.

The CHAIRMAN. That resulted in the decrease of one in the personnel of your force ?

Doctor Wiley. Yes; he was probably doing all of that work. As our men were doing other work, they were not dismissed. What has been done over there was to appoint a large number of chemists to do soil work, which we are not doing in our Bureau.

The CHAIRMAN. Who had been doing it before that time, or up to that time; the men in your Bureau ?

Doctor Wiley. Yes; I have no criticism to make of that, of course; I am only telling you the facts.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; that relates to that Bureau that was created about six years ago; we understand that. I suppose there has been an increase rather than a decrease in the personnel of your force?

Doctor Wiley. A very large increase.
The CHAIRMAN. When was the increase made?

Doctor Wiley. It has been gradually increased up to now, and there will now be a sudden increase again. I can give you this information: Six years ago we were receiving an appropriation of about $45,000 or $50,000 a year, I can not recall the exact amount, but it can be ascertained. Last year the appropriation for our Bureau was, in round numbers, $174,000. It has been increasing at that rate.

The CHAIRMAN. In 1906 the appropriation for general expenses of the Bureau of Chemistry was $127,000.

Doctor Wiley. Yes; that is the year you are considering, the one that ended July 1. I am speaking of the present fiscal year.

Mr. ZAPPONE. One hundred and fifty-three thousand dollars is the

(Witnesses: Wiley, Zappone.)

total for the Bureau of Chemistry. That includes $24,000, in round numbers, for statutory salaries.

Doctor Wiley. That was the appropriation for the year ending July 1, 1906. That for the present year is larger than that, about $19,000 more.

The CHAIRMAN. On page 234 of this publication of expenditures we get a total amount of $155,000 and an expenditure of $149,985.82.

Doctor WILEY. That is for the fiscal year ended June 30, 1906.
The CHAIRMAN. But this year there will be an increase.
Doctor WILEY. About $19,000 more, I think.
The CHAIRMAN. So that you have grown from $40,000 ---

Doctor Wiley. When we were made a bureau we commenced to grow, but not until then.

That was six years ago.
The CHAIRMAN. How did it happen that you did not grow?

Doctor WILEY. As a division we did not, but we have been growing as a bureau. A bureau is a more dignified service, I suppose.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the difference in results to the Government?

Doctor WILEY. When we were made a bureau, Congress authorized the Secretary, and directed him, to do the chemical work for all the Departments of the Government which desired it. They came in at the same time under the new order.

The CHAIRMAN. That was contemporaneous with being created a bureau ?

Doctor Wiley. Yes, sir; as a division we had a single organization with no subdivisions of any kind.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was then doing the chemical work of the other Departments of the Government !

Doctor Wiley. There was not much done. They had their own chemical laboratories and they have themı yet.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that the other Departments have laboratories?

Doctor Wiley. Some of them do. Their laboratories are for specific purposes and not general purposes.

The CHAIRMAN. How is it that the Departments have continued their laboratories?

Doctor Wiley. The law provides only for such other work as the heads of Departments may ask for. It does not specify that they shall do all the work.

The CHAIRMAN. Why should not your Bureau of Chemistry do all the chemical work required by the other Departments of the Government?

Doctor Wiley. I think, if you will allow me to express an opinion on that, that it would be the greatest economy and efficiency in the world if that were ordered.

The ChairMAN. That is exactly what we want your opinion on.

Doctor WILEY. I think that would be the greatest economy in the chemical work that could come.

Adjourned at 1 o'clock p. m.

(Witness: Wiley.)

AFTER RECESS.

STATEMENT OF DR. HARVEY W. WILEY-Continued.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be kind enough to state, Doctor, how many chemical laboratories are being operated now in connection with the other Departments of the Government?

Doctor Wiley. So far as my knowledge extends—and I think I am pretty familiar with the laboratories which are in operationthe Treasury Department has three laboratories in Washington. One is connected with the Supervising Architect's office, in connection with examining the materials used in the construction of public buildings. One is connected with the Bureau of Internal Revenue, and does the chemical work necessary to the execution of the laws relating to the collection of internal revenue on spirits, tobacco, fermented beverages, etc. The third is the office of the Assayer of the Mint; it is purely assaying chemistry, testing the fineness of the gold and silver, etc., connected with the mints of the United States.

The CHAIRMAN. Those are all three located in Washington ?

Doctor Wiley. In Washington; yes, sir. The Treasury Department also has a chemical laboratory in practically every port of entry, since a great many of the materials which are imported into this country are chemicals or the duties are assessed in accordance with their chemical composition, and the object of these laboratories is to enable the appraiser to arrive at the exact revenue which should be collected on imported articles.

The CHAIRMAN. In accordance with the percentage of the various articles involved therein ?

Doctor WILEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you also have men from your Bureau at various ports of entry?

Doctor WILEY. We have laboratories at the ports of entry as follows: Boston, New York, Philadelphia, New Orleans, Chicago, and San Francisco.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the reason that all the chemical laboratory work for the Government can not be done in your laboratories at those ports?

Doctor Wiley. I suppose it could be, if we had men enough there to do the work.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any need of more than one laboratory, if it were operated by men enough to do all the work of a chemical character that the Government needs done at those ports?

Doctor Wiley. I should think that one laboratory large enough to do all the work would be entirely sufficient for the purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. And having two laboratories practically duplicates the expense of the keeping up of laboratories, does it not?

Doctor Wiley. There may be additional expense, but they do not duplicate each other's work at all.

The CHAIRMAN. No; they may not duplicate each other's work, but the laboratories themselves are to a large degree duplicates, are they not?

Doctor WILEY. To a large degree; but if you should increase the

(Witness: Wiley.)

one laboratory so as to do the work of the two it would be practically at the same expense.

The CHAIRMAN. Why could not the work done in the Supervising Architect's office, the Internal Revenue Department, and the Assayer's Department under the Treasury all be done under your Bureau the Bureau of Chemistry?

Doctor Wiley. I would like to answer that by saying that there is a very great deal of difference of opinion on that subject, and a very proper difference of opinion, respecting the proper way to do that kind of work, and I am only speaking from my point of view.

The CHAIRMAN. Precisely so.

Doctor Wiley. And I am not at all saying that it is better or worse than any other. As far as the chemical work is concerned, it is all chemical work and all belongs to the same science. The people who do this work are trained in that science along these particular lines, so that the man who is doing the assaying would not be a suitable person to turn over and do the work for the Bureau of Internal Revenue, nor to do the work of the Supervising Architect; but as far as the chemical work is concerned, it seems to me it might be done just as well under a common direction, under a single direction, in the Treasury Department, as to be done under three separate directions.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it not save expense?

Doctor Wiley. It would save the expense at least of one or two directors or head men. I do not think it would save any in numbers, because they all have all they can do.

The CHAIRMAN. But it would eliminate one or two directors of each bureau ?

Doctor Wiley. It might; yes. It might eliminate one or two head men.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, the executive work they now do could be done by one general executive head?

Doctor Wiley. I think that would be possible, as far as the executive work is concerned, and, in my opinion, it would not make it any less effective.

The CHAIRMAN. And would not the centralization of the laboratory save expense also?

Doctor Wiley. There would be one system of buying and one source of supplies, so that the materials which might be in excess in one place would be available for the use of the other, and in that way save expense and promote economy, I think.

The CHAIRMAN. Is not quite a portion of the apparatus fundamental and common to all ?

Doctor WILEY. Practically speaking, the chemical apparatus is the same in all.

The CHAIRMAN. Does not that involve, to quite an extent, duplication where you have separate laboratories?

Doctor Wiley. It involves duplication in so far as keeping stock on hand, not in use, is concerned; but of course the apparatus in use must be duplicated as many times as you have persons. Each man must have a certain amount of apparatus, and that is a duplicate of what the other man has. In that sense there is no duplication; but if each one has its separate stores, there may be a larger sum invested

(Witness: Wiley.)

in apparatus not in use than if they were all supplied from the same source.

The CHAIRMAN. What other Departments are there, besides the Treasury Department, that operate separate laboratories?

Doctor Wiley. The Department of Commerce and Labor has a laboratory in the Bureau of Standards that does chemical work in connection with the fixing of the standards of weights and measures, and other standard work under that act, as authorized by Congress. The Bureau of Standards also now does the work for the Treasury which was formerly done by the Department of Agriculture, in controlling the collection of duties on sugar at the ports of entry. This work was done by the Department of Agriculture for a number of years by an arrangement between the Secretary of the Treasury and the Secretary of Agriculture. I was in charge of the sugar laboratories of the various ports under the Secretary of the Treasury, detailed to his office for that purpose for as much time as was necessary, by the Secretary of Agriculture, and receiving an appointment by the Secretary of the Treasury.

The CHAIRMAN. When was that work transferred to the Bureau of Standards?

Doctor WILEY. Soon after it was established; about four or five years ago.

The CHAIRMAN. Did that result in any reduction in your force?

Doctor Wiley. Yes; one young man that I had, who assisted me in the polarizations, resigned and went into private business; but I was the only other person in my Bureau who had anything to do with it.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you able to do that in connection with your other duties?

Doctor Wiley. I did it by having sent to my laboratory every day a sample of sugars from every port, and this was sent to all the port laboratories and polarized at all the ports, and the results were sent to me for comparison every day; and this young man that I spoke of, that I had, made those analyses.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you have any man to take his place when he left?

Doctor Wiley. No; because when he left that work was stopped; and he resigned anyway, to go into private business, and we appointed nobody in his place. The CHAIRMAN. That reduced one man in

your Bureau ? Doctor WILEY. One man.

The CHAIRMAN. How many men did it require to do that work when it was in the Bureau of Standards?

Doctor WILEY. I could not answer that question.
The CHAIRMAN. You can not tell us anything about that?
Doctor WILEY. No.
The CHAIRMAN. What other Departments have laboratories?

Doctor Wiley. The Treasury Department also has another laboratory that I have not spoken of in the Marine-Hospital and Public Health Service.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is that, in Washington ?
Doctor Wiley. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. That makes four in the Treasury?

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