(Witnesses: Wiley, Zappone.)

Doctor WILEY. Yes; and just as well as the chief of the bureau will write it, and they are always high-grade and experienced clerks in every case-I believe without exception. And also in the case of clerks who have been raised from a low grade to a higher grade and given executive work to do, although they still do some stenography and typewriting. One case I remember with respect to that was of a $1,400 clerk who has charge now of the filing and record of all the work done at all ports of entry where our inspections take place, a very high grade of executive clerical work. She does that in addition to the stenography and typewriting, which is done when there is an opportunity to do it in between; so that so far as stenography and typewriting are concerned, a $1,400 clerk does the same kind of work as the $720 clerk does; but I do not give to the $720 clerk anything but stenography and typewriting, while I do give to the upper-grade clerk, as experience and merit and ability increase, additional work. That is the only difference, Mr. Chairman, between the grades.

Mr. SAMUEL. Does that apply in technical or scientific work? Doctor WILEY. We never give any technical or scientific work to clerks.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have clerks drawing over $1,200?

Doctor WILEY. My chief clerk draws $1,600. My editorial clerk, who does the highest grade of intellectual work, gets $1,400. She ought to have a great deal more. There is another clerk, who has charge of the property, who receives $1,600.

Mr. ZAPPONE. One thousand four hundred dollars, Doctor.

Doctor WILEY. Yes; Mr. Linton keeps all the accounts and does a very high grade of executive work and receives $1,400. Miss Eckman is the clerk whom I have just spoken of, who keeps the files and has charge of all the work in connection with the ports, a very high grade of work.

The CHAIRMAN. That is on the basis of efficiency?

Doctor WILEY. She has also been in the Bureau a long time. I would never give executive work to a clerk of that kind who had not shown the ability to do it. So I do make a distinction, even in the clerical work, with experience and ability in that way, by assigning work which is not strictly clerical, but of an executive character and which can be easily delegated without danger or detriment to the

service.

The CHAIRMAN. You have referred to the accounts and requisitions. What is the practice in connection with your bureau with reference to requisitions? Does your clerk make out the original statement upon which a requisition is based; this clerk of which you spoke?

Doctor WILEY. I am speaking of the chemical and other supplies of the bureau, because that is our chief expenditure for supplies.

The CHAIRMAN. I will tell you what I am after, so you will get the point. We found on examination of Doctor Galloway that there was a process something like this; that one clerk prepared a memorandum or request which was the basis of the requisition, and a letter on that went into the hands of another clerk, who simply redrew the same thing and put it into the shape of a requisition, the requisition including both of these acts and requiring the going over of the same thing.

23848-07- -27

(Witnesses: Wiley, Zappone.)

Doctor WILEY. In regard to the regulation of supplies as to chemicals and so forth, I instruct my property clerk to see to it that they are never exhausted. Suppose, in regard to our sulphuric acid, we should find the supply running low; he will come to me with a requisition for so many carboys of sulphuric acid, and the supply will thus not run short.

The CHAIRMAN. Who makes that requisition?
Doctor WILEY. He makes the requisition.

The CHAIRMAN. So that you have only one man engaged in the work, and no duplication.

Doctor WILEY. Yes. Suppose there is something new wanted, some workers are making an investigation and they require the purchase of some new chemical; they always come to me first and secure my approval. I say, "Are you sure that you need it?" and make them explain every detail before I give my approval. Then I call in Mr. Linton, and if I approve the requisition, I say to him, "Make out this requisition," and that is the end of it. I sign it, and that is all we have to do with it.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the purchase of your supplies go to the central bureau, so that they are all purchased under one head, or do you purchase them yourself for your bureau?

Doctor WILEY. We purchase them ourselves-that is, they are all purchased on bids which are prepared. My impression is that we send them direct [turning to Mr. Zappone].

Mr. ZAPPONE. Yes; you make your own purchases and mail the requisitions direct to the dealers.

Doctor WILEY. But we always purchase from the advertised_and accepted bids, excepting things which have not been foreseen and are not in the bids.

The CHAIRMAN. Such as public advertisements.

Doctor WILEY. And then if they are to cost over a certain sum competition must be secured. We always do that. It is all very simple and there is no duplication in it at all; it is direct.

The CHAIRMAN. You haven't a great many employees above $1,400? Doctor WILEY. Not under the statutory roll. I have a number of chemists above $1,400.

Mr. SAMUEL. I notice that your chief clerk is paid $1,600.
Doctor WILEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SAMUEL. I also notice that the chief clerk, for instance, of the Bureau of Entomology gets $1.800. Are you in a position to make comparisons as to why your clerk should get less than one which appears to me to be a smaller appointment?

Doctor WILEY. I think it is because my chief clerk is a woman.

The CHAIRMAN. Then I will put the question the other way, why do the other men get more money?

Mr. ZAPPONE. The Secretary has recommended in the estimate for next year an increase in the salary of the chief clerk of the Bureau of Chemistry, making it the same as the chief clerk of the bureau to which you made reference.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course it does not necessarily follow that the one drawing less should draw more, because it may be that the one drawing more ought to be lowered.

Doctor WILEY. I don't think there is a more efficient chief clerk in

(Witness: Wiley.)

the Department of Agriculture. She has been there nineteen years and knows its history from beginning to end. Her name is M. S. Reed.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you say, Doctor, about the proposition as to the rates of compensation for clerks from $1,400 down, in your Department, as compared with compensation that the same persons receive doing substantially the same kind of work in the commercial world or in outside employment? Are the sums paid per unit of result larger in your Department than they would be outside, or are they smaller? What is your judgment?

Doctor WILEY. Mr. Chairman, I am not acquainted with commercial houses nor the salaries paid therein, so I don't think I can answer that question.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor Galloway told us the other day that, in his judgment after careful examination of that subject, he thought the Government employees from $1,400 and under were drawing from 20 per cent to 25 per cent more than the people rendering substantially the same service in the outside world.

Doctor WILEY. I don't feel qualified to express any opinion on that. The CHAIRMAN. How about the men who are in excess? When you get above $1,400 you reach the area of scientific employees, practically?

Doctor WILEY. Except in the one case of chief clerk.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, your own chief clerk?

Doctor WILEY. As to whether all above that are scientific employees, I can not answer positively in that respect. We think that our people are getting a good deal less than those who do similar work in the commercial world. I can illustrate that by saying that I am losing at the rate of eight or ten men a year to commercial houses; that is, of my scientific staff.

The CHAIRMAN. Isn't that due largely to the fact that those men that you thus lose, while they are competent men and specialized in their lines, yet they have been developed in the great majority of instances in the Department and have acquired their skill and capacity while Government employees, and that they have a reputation for specialized scientific work as the result of their work in the Department that they would not have had if in outside employment?

Doctor WILEY. I think that is true. I think that of the 40 or 50 men that have left my Bureau to enter commercial life every one entered the Bureau unknown.

The CHAIRMAN. Are not those men largely indebted to the skill developed and the reputation acquired while in the Government service from the fact that they have in the Government service an opportunity to get employment at a higher rate?

Doctor WILEY. But you must not forget the fact that we are robbed of the services. We are the persons who lose, and they are the persons who gain. The Government employee and commerce gain and we lose. That is the condition of affairs to-day. The very moment that one of our men gets a reputation and skill that make him of more value to the service and to the Government somebody comes along and takes him away.

The CHAIRMAN. The fact that he has been in the Government employ gives him the advantage to get employment in that way?

(Witnesses: Wiley, Zappone.)

Doctor WILEY. Yes. We are training skilled men for the commercial world.

The CHAIRMAN. So that commerce is getting the advantage of the work done by the Government in the training of these men?

Doctor WILEY. Mr. Chairman, my Bureau is a training school for other branches of the service as well. I have lost two men inside of six months to the Treasury Department because they paid them nearly a thousand dollars more than I could pay them.

The CHAIRMAN. What are they doing in the Treasury Department? Doctor WILEY. One of them went to take charge, and he has charge now of the denatured-alcohol matter. One went to the Bureau of Engraving and Printing to have charge of the paint.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that because the men in charge of those departments arbitrarily fixed the salaries at that size?

Mr. ZAPPONE. Yes, sir; their salaries were no doubt paid from lump funds.

The CHAIRMAN. What particular men were those?

Doctor WILEY. Mr. Tolman and Mr. Munson. Both went from me to the Treasury Department.

The CHAIRMAN. What were they drawing under you?
Doctor WILEY. One thousand eight hundred dollars.
The CHAIRMAN. What are they getting now?

Doctor WILEY. Two thousand five hundred dollars.

The CHAIRMAN. Why was it necessary for the Treasury Department to jump that salary up $700 in order to get those men?

Doctor WILEY. Because they wanted the men; because the men had the training.

The CHAIRMAN. Seven hundred dollars is a good increase.

Doctor WILEY. Yes. They could not get men anywhere else to do their work. We had prepared those men to do that work by our training, and I said that I would not stand in their way.

The CHAIRMAN. Why should not they have taken them from your department without an increase of salary?

Doctor WILEY. They would not have gone; they preferred to stay with me at the same salary.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you power to transfer men?

Doctor WILEY. If the men want to go, but not against their will; from one Department to another.

The CHAIRMAN. Is not there power on the part of a Department to transfer men from one department to another according to the judgment and discretion of the heads thereof?

Doctor WILEY. It is done constantly by consent of all parties. The CHAIRMAN. Is it based upon the consent of the employed? Doctor WILEY. Always, so far as I know. I have never known of a case otherwise.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be the course; that undoubtedly is the practice. But I would like to inquire now whether it would not be wise, either by statute or regulation, on the part of the departments to have the power placed with heads of bureaus to consolidate or to transfer from one Department to another when the service would be improved.

Doctor WILEY. I could not express any opinion on that because I never thought of that question.

(Witnesses: Wiley, Zappone.)

Mr. ZAPPONE. That is a matter of civil-service law. There is a law or regulation covering it now; it depends solely upon the consent of the head of each department and the apportionment as to States.

The CHAIRMAN. Then it does not depend upon the consent of the employee?

Mr. ZAPPONE. Not at all. The man is consulted as a matter of courtesy, but his personal wish in the matter need not affect the case. While it usually influences the head of the Department, if he orders the man transferred to another Department, he must go or leave the service.

Doctor WILEY. I didn't know that that was the case.

Mr. SAMUEL. Are these men doing more work now for $2,500 than they did for you?

Doctor WILEY. I don't think they could do any more; they were men who worked all the time.

Mr. SAMUEL. Is it work of a high order?

Doctor WILEY. No higher order; I don't think it is of so high an order, because we have men doing not only routine work, but they do research work, which is the highest grade of work. Over there where the men are it is routine work.

The CHAIRMAN. The fact about it is that the positions they now occupy do not call for as high an order of ability and versatility as those which they left?

Doctor WILEY. As high an order of ability, but not research work, such as mine was.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, a man might have executive ability without research ability; but a man who combined executive ability with research ability would be a man of higher quality than a man who had executive ability alone.

Doctor WILEY. In this connection I would like to inform you that nearly every head man that the Bureau of Internal Revenue has had in the last fifteen years in the scientific service has been taken from my Bureau; every one.

Mr. SAMUEL. Were those men satisfied while they were working for you at $1,800?

Doctor WILEY. Of course, they wanted more money, and they got this opportunity.

Mr. SAMUEL. They were apparently satisfied.

Doctor WILEY. Of course, they were perfectly willing to be promoted.

The CHAIRMAN. It was entirely within the power of the head of the Internal Revenue Service of the Treasury Department, by the concurrence of your Department, to transfer these men at the same salary to that Department.

Mr. ZAPPONE. In this connection I may state that it is my understanding that the numerous transfers of clerks from one Department to another, simply for the purpose of promotion, caused Congress at its last session to pass a law requiring a clerk to work three years. in one Department before he could be transferred to another, and after being transferred to the other Department the clerk must remain there for three years before a transfer to another Department. can be secured.