(Witness: Smith.)

STATEMENT OF MR. AMZI SMITH, SUPERINTENDENT, DOCUMENT ROOM OF SENATE.

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)

The CHAIRMAN. You are the superintendent of the Senate document room?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be kind enough to state, for the information of the committee, how many copies of the document entitled "Detailed statement of expenditures of the Agricultural Department" are ordinarily called for in your document room?

Mr. SMITH. Very few. I think it was cut down from 150 to 50 last year under the new law.

The CHAIRMAN. It was cut down in the House document room from 420 to 50 and in the Senate document room from 150 to 50? Mr. SMITH. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. We are told by Mr. Grayson that the call in the House document room only amounts to something like 15 or 20, and during some of the sessions there is no call at all. Now, what is the fact in your room, so far as you remember?

Mr. SMITH. So far as my room is concerned, from 25 to 30 copies per year is all the call we have; not over that.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you do with your extra copies?

Mr. SMITH. We keep a file of them, depending altogether on how many I have left at the end of each session; but I keep in the neighborhood of 25 copies.

The CHAIRMAN. And the balance you throw in waste paper?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You pick out these?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; pick out those that are torn and defaced.

The CHAIRMAN. You have no knowledge of these other Departments, have you?

Mr. SMITH. No; I have not, except general information.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a similar report-that is, a statement of expenditures from the Department of State, from the Treasury Department, War Department, Navy Department, Post-Office Department, Interior Department, and Department of Justice?

Mr. SMITH. We have statements each year of expenditures from the contingent fund that are printed separately; but for general expenditures we go to the annual reports.

The CHAIRMAN. So that the statements of expenditures that you get from those Departments are not on all fours like the statement that comes from the Agricultural Department, because that includes everything.

Mr. SMITH. Yes; that includes everything. That was done by the act of January 12, 1895, when the administrative portion of the report was cut out from the other portions of the report and the Yearbook provided for. Up to that time the two were together.

The CHAIRMAN. Has there been any more call for such statements as have been made public documents from the other Departments than you have had for that from the Department of Agriculture? Mr. SMITH. Just about the same, I should think. This cutting

23848-07-2

(Witnesses: Smith, Post.)

down, Mr. Littlefield, of the number of documents is an experiment with us. You see, this is the first year. When we went over this and these numbers were settled, I tried to be on the safe side.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, your estimates of decreases were conservative?

Mr. SMITH. Yes. I wanted to be on the safe side. It is barely possible that after a year or two's experience some of these might perhaps be cut down a little further.

The CHAIRMAN. And the cut-downs that were made by the Committee on Printing, so far as your room is concerned, were made after consultation with you?

Mr. SMITH. Oh, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And, as you say, you gave them rather a minimum than a maximum in order to see what the results would be by experience of the reduced number?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So that it will be possible for us later on, perhaps, to make still further reductions?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; still further reductions, and perhaps some increases of others; but I do not think there will be much increase. The CHAIRMAN. Those numbers published heretofore have been published in accordance with the provisions of the general law? Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are those documents thus published without some order of some officer of either the House or Senate, as a matter of course?

Mr. SMITH. As a matter of course, they are placed there to be transmitted officially.

The CHAIRMAN. And the transmission results as a matter of law, and the publication of the reports, as you understand it, is in consequence of law?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So that if there have been excessive numbers printed it was in consequence of the operation of a general statute? Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. There were excessive numbers printed until this went into effect.

STATEMENT OF MR. WILLIAM L. POST, SUPERINTENDENT OF DOCUMENTS, GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE.

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) The CHAIRMAN. What position do you hold, please? Mr. POST. Superintendent of documents.

The CHAIRMAN. Now explain to the committee, Mr. Post, please, what disposition is made of documents that appear in the regulations of the Joint Committee on Printing under the title of "House Documents" and under the subject head of "Bound;" first 502 volumes, Superintendent of Documents, depositaries." Now what is done?

Mr. POST. They are the sheep-bound Congressional documents, sent to designated depositaries, provided by law and designated by each Member and Senator in the States and Territories.

The CHAIRMAN. This particular document we are now inquiring

(Witness: Post.)

about is the "Detailed statement of expenditures in the Agricultural Department," Document No. 502? Those, as I understand you, are all bound in sheep?

Mr. POST. They are all bound in sheep.

The CHAIRMAN. And this statement of expenditures is distributed in accordance with the orders of whom-Congress?

Mr. POST. Congress; it is a special designation that is made, and stands for all Congressional documents.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes; then those are distributed by virtue of the provisions of some existing statute?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That provides where these various documents shall be sent?

Mr. POST. It provides how they shall be sent, but the Member of Congress is allowed to say where.

The CHAIRMAN. You can not furnish us right now, offhand, I suppose, the law under which that is done, can you?

Mr. POST. No; I can not. That is one of the sections of the Revised Statutes. It provides for furnishing the documents to libraries designated by each Senator, Representative, and Delegate in Congress, and the number would be 482, plus the State and Territorial libraries, 50, which are especially provided for, as well as the libraries of nine Executive Departments, the Naval and Military acadamies, and American Antiquarian Society at Worcester, Mass., put on by special legislation, a total of 544 libraries; and only 502 books are provided to supply them.

(Sections 501 and 502, Revised Statutes.)

The CHAIRMAN. So those are not documents that go out on call? Mr. PosT. No, sir; they are only the regular numbered Congressional documents bound in sheep.

The CHAIRMAN. And under this statute, practically useless documents and others, it matters not what their value is, all go under the same designation?

Mr. POST. They are all bound up under the same designation.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course the Printing Department knows no distinction?

Mr. PosT. None at all.

The CHAIRMAN. The document may not be valuable, or may be of very great value; it does not make any difference what the fact may be in that respect-the same number goes?

Mr. PosT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Provided the same designations are made under the statute?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I find 53 under the subheading of "Smithsonian Institute, foreign exchanges." Are those delivered to the Institute by virtue of the provisions of some general statute?

Mr. PosT. Yes, sir; by virtue of the provision of the printing act of January 12, 1895.

Section 54, as amended by joint resolution No. 16, approved March 2, 1901 (Stat. L., vol. 31, p. 1464).

The CHAIRMAN. Now, here are 5 to the Senate library, 5 to the

(Witness: Post.)

House library, 9 to the Library of Congress, and 1 to the State Department. Those are all subject to those same considerations? Mr. POST. They come under the same law.

The CHAIRMAN. They are distributed in the same way, under the same law?

Mr. Posт. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So that the Printing Department has no discretion whatever as to the number that they print and bind?

Mr. POST. None whatever; and I will say also that a document of that character, if it were not included among the numbered Congressional documents, would be furnished to designated depository libraries anyway, under provisions of existing statutes, but would not be furnished to the Smithsonian or the Senate or the House libraries, or the Library of Congress, or the State Department. It would go to these libraries because, by provision of the existing statute, the designated depository libraries receive one copy of every Government publication printed, whether it is a Congressional document or a departmental publication, while these other people do not receive anything except what is Congressional in its character.

The CHAIRMAN. What is done with these books that are thus bound if they are not designated for distribution under the statute?

Mr. POST. They are held, according to law, until they are designated.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you give the committee any idea how many of the detailed statements of expenditures in the Agricultural Department are now so held?

Mr. PosT. Sixteen.

The CHAIRMAN. Sixteen for what year?

Mr. POST. Sixteen copies for every year. We only have on our list now 484 libraries.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, with the exception of 16 copies, they are all distributed under that statute?

Mr. PosT. Yes; they are all distributed.

The CHAIRMAN. So that there is practically no surplus on hand? Mr. PosT. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any information at the Department as to the value placed upon a public document of that character by these various libraries?

Mr. POST. Not by the libraries; but we have an indication from the sales. Our office is the sales office for the United States Government publications, and we can tell pretty well what publication is popular by the calls we have for it from outsiders.

The CHAIRMAN. What call do you have for this?

Mr. PosT. We never have had a call.

The CHAIRMAN. You never have had a call?

Mr. Posт. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever had any call for any of the statements of expenditures from any of the Departments?

Mr. PosT. Never to my knowledge. I would not like to be sure about that.

The CHAIRMAN. So that if the fact of calling or not calling was a demonstration of value, these would not have any value?

Mr. PosT. None whatever.

(Witness: Post.)

The CHAIRMAN. In a general way, without going into details, what are the documents that you have the principal calls for?

Mr. POST. The bulletins of the Agricultural Department are the best-selling publications, and I think next to that the bulletins and reports of the Geological Survey.

The CHAIRMAN. The bulletins of the Agricultural Department are not printed as House documents?

Mr. POST. No; they are not.

The CHAIRMAN. That is under another provision of the law; and are those of the Geological Survey? Those are not House documents either, are they?

Mr. PosT. Yes; they are Congressional documents.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any calls for the reports of the Geological Survey?

Mr. PosT. Oh, yes; they are.sold extensively.

The CHAIRMAN. As House documents?

Mr. Posт. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. This sum of 4,854, for instance, in case of the annual reports of the Agricultural Department (using that item as an illustration), is an aggregate of all of the numbers printed of that document prior to the adoption of the new regulations, is it not, or is it?

Mr. POST. Yes, sir; that is the total number-the grand total. The CHAIRMAN. And whatever numbers you may have had on hand for sale are numbers that would come out of that aggregate? Mr. POST. They are represented by that number out there-100 [indicating]. In the case of anything printed as extra copies, when the division is made between the House and the Senate an equal division is made. What is left over comes to the superintendent of documents for distribution and sale. In the case of a 2,000 and 1,000 allotment, he gets 100. In a case like this, of 14,000 and 7,000, he would get 235. It is only the left-over copies after equal distribution is made that come to us.

The CHAIRMAN. In the case of the detailed statement of expenditures of the Agricultural Department there never have been any left over?

Mr. PosT. Is that the second one there?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. PosT. Nobody took any of them; they did not want them. They would have been entered here if they had been left over. There was no House and Senate distribution or print of them, you see-no extra copies ordered.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.

Mr. POST. If they had been left over, they would have been entered here.

Mr. SAMUEL. The usual number were printed?

Mr. POST. Only the usual number; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The usual number printed of all these House documents, then, is only 1,854?

Mr. POST. One thousand eight hundred and fifty-four.

The CHAIRMAN. And if an additional number appears to have been printed in any portion of this schedule it is by virtue of some special legislation?