(Witness: Melvin.) Doctor MELVIN. I will submit the pedigree of the horse: The CHAIRMAN. Did your Bureau have special authority to engage in this line of development or have you that authority under the general provisions of law creating your Department? Doctor MELVIN. No, sir. This experiment was undertaken under a special appropriation of $25,000 for animal feeding and breeding. (Witnesses: Zappone, Melvin.) The CHAIRMAN. What year was that? Mr. ZAPPONE. That is a specific law. You will find it on page 6 of the appropriation bill. The CHAIRMAN. "For experiments in animal breeding and feeding in cooperation with State agricultural stations, $25,000." That is the authority? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And that was embarked upon in 1903? Doctor MELVIN. In 1904. The CHAIRMAN. Under that appropriation have any other experiments in breeding, except this in connection with the horses, been engaged in? Doctor MELVIN. We have another horse-breeding experiment which has been undertaken in connection with the experiment station of Vermont. The CHAIRMAN. What is that confined to, Morgans? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. We have seven mares purchased and the maintenance, stabling, etc., is provided by the State. These mares were purchased out of this appropriation. The CHAIRMAN. Have you a Morgan stallion also? Doctor MELVIN. We have not yet. We did not have sufficient funds to purchase the stallion. We expect to procure the services of a suitable stallion and pay for his services. The CHAIRMAN. Is there not a large private establishment in Vermont that is devoted exclusively to the breeding and development of the Morgan horse? Doctor MELVIN. I think there are several stock farms where Morgan horses are reared. The CHAIRMAN. Are they located in Vermont? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Are they conducted on the lines of developing the pure Morgan horse? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir; but not solely for the purpose of producing a larger type of horse such as this experiment is to undertake to produce. The CHAIRMAN. Then you would not consider that the breeding that is now going on under private management was calculated to produce the results of developing the larger size in the breed, and the purpose of the Department in establishing a station for that purpose is to increase, if possible, the size of the breed? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. Of course, these experiments are intended to extend over a period of fifty or sixty years before a distinct type can be firmly established. The CHAIRMAN. That is to say, you begin the experiment now and you would not expect to get the results you hope to attain until after the end of forty or fifty years? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. So that it involves a long period of time before you can determine whether or not the experiment is of value? Doctor MELVIN. The breeding experiments already, I think, have pretty definitely shown that such an experiment will be of value. The CHAIRMAN. You mean experiments by the Government or by private individuals? (Witness: Melvin.) Doctor MELVIN. By private individuals. As I understand, this experiment was undertaken by the Government because it could continue it along definite lines for a longer period than the individuals could. Some experiments have already been undertaken by individuals and were necessarily discontinued upon the death of the individual, a change of management, lack of wealth, etc., which caused the experiment to cease and the results were lost. The CHAIRMAN. Is it the contemplation of the Government to breed horses for sale? Doctor MELVIN. Not in this experiment; no, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Is it ultimately, as a result of this appropriationthat is, is it the design of the Department in having an appropriation for experiments in animal breeding simply to develop the type that other people may follow, or to breed horses for sale and distribution? Doctor MELVIN. It would be eventually both. The experiment would demonstrate the feasibility of conducting breeding along the lines that the Government is pursuing, and in the end of course the horses would revert to the people either by direct sale or otherwise. I do not know how that would be, eventually. The CHAIRMAN. So you do not know what the definite contemplation is along those lines? Doctor MELVIN. That, I think, would be a matter for future policy rather than the present. The CHAIRMAN. It is your idea, if I get it aright, when the Government engages in this experimental breeding it involves continuance of purpose for a sufficient length of time to produce results, whereas if to private enterprise the results may not be obtained on account of not being sufficiently long continued? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir; exactly. The CHAIRMAN. That is, it is impracticable to expect these results from private enterprise? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Are you experimenting in the breeding of cattle? Doctor MELVIN. Not along the same lines. We have a breeding problem under consideration in connection with the Minnesota Experiment Station. This experiment will consist more in the observation of breeding by individuals than by purchase of animals by the Department. The State and the General Government will assist in the forming of a breeding club or circle by individual cattle owners, and these cattle will be selected under the joint selection of the State and the General Government, and the cost to the State and the General Government will be almost entirely confined to the selection of these cattle and the supervision of the future breeding experiments. The individuals who engage in this experiment will obligate themselves to follow the rules laid down by the Government regarding selection and exchange of animals for breeding. This plan has not been fully worked out, but is merely under consideration at this time. The CHAIRMAN. Further than that you have not gone in the experiment of breeding cattle? Doctor MELVIN. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. The plan that you speak of would be only a comparatively small expense to the Government? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. (Witness: Melvin.) Mr. FLOOD. The individuals furnish the stock? Doctor MELVIN. The individuals furnish the cattle, and the Department selects them and possibly assists somewhat in their being obtained through paying the cost of transportation. Mr. FLOOD. You mean that somebody at one point in the country will give to an individual at another point the cattle and only have to pay the transportation? Doctor MELVIN. These individuals will obtain the cattle themselves, probably by direct purchase, or perhaps they may already be in possession of suitable animals for the experiment. This is to establish a breed of cattle which would be serviceable both for beef and for milk purposes. The CHAIRMAN. The Department under that will practically furnish an expert whose advice will be acted upon by the private individuals engaged in carrying out the experiment? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. They obligate themselves to absolutely follow all the selections made by the expert of the State and the General Government, and then these cattle will in turn, as necessary, be allotted among this circle of breeders, so as to provide sires for certain individual females, as the qualifications may require. The CHAIRMAN. To make the proper crosses? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Has that gone far enough so you have a definite idea as to what combination you will make for the purpose of producing the composite animal-that is, the best beef and milk producer at the same time? Doctor MELVIN. No; hardly to that extent yet. The CHAIRMAN. You can not say what breed of cattle you would use for the purpose of bringing about that result? Doctor MELVIN. I think the breed that is under consideration is the shorthorned breed. The CHAIRMAN. And you cross them with some other breed that are better milkers than they are? Doctor MELVIN. No, sir. I think it was to confine the breeding to that breed of cattle and to secure by selection those that were prolific in milk and also suitable for beef. The CHAIRMAN. The effort is to develop in some one breed those two qualities? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Not by crossing, but by combining the same breed, and by keeping that breed intact and by selection of individuals, make an effort to produce that combination? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And secure the best results in beef and milk at the same time? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Why would not that method be practicable in the matter of horse breeding, and so relieve the Government of the expense of the investment in the horses? Doctor MELVIN. This, I think, was a plan that was submitted by the present Assistant Secretary since the horse-breeding experiments were commenced. The first horse-breeding experiment was undertaken and commenced before Professor Hays entered the Department. (Witness: Melvin.) The CHAIRMAN. Is there any reason that occurs to you why the same method would not be feasible in connection with the breeding of horses? Doctor MELVIN. Yes; I think it would be hard to obtain enough breeding farms within a reasonable distance of each other where horses are bred along the same lines. I doubt, too, whether the breeders of horses would be willing to obligate themselves to carry on a system of breeding the same as these breeders of cattle would. In other words, the number of herds where a system of cattle breeding can be carried on along these lines is greater than the horse-breeding establishments are. The CHAIRMAN. Have you had any difficulty in getting cooperation with the cattle breeders on the lines indicated? Doctor MELVIN. It is not definitely known just how many we can obtain to enter into this experiment, but it is not anticipated that we will have trouble in getting a sufficient number. The CHAIRMAN. So far as you have gone the prospect is that you will be able to carry it along successfully? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Has the Department made any effort to establish the horse-breeding experiments along those same lines? Doctor MELVIN. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. If this turns out to be feasible in connection with the breeding of cattle, if by investigation and inquiry you can find the conditions equally as favorable, there would be no other objection to conducting the horse-breeding experiments along the same lines? Doctor MELVIN. I think not. In fact, I think if at some future date the system of breeding along this line were undertaken it could be advantageously carried on in connection with the present experiment on account of the sires we would have available for placing in such an experiment. The CHAIRMAN. Of course, when it comes to the question of breeding horses if it turned out that colts produced under those circumstances had an appreciably higher amount of value, as soon as that was developed there would probably be no difficulty in getting the cooperation of the men engaged in breeding, because it would increase very much the value of their output. Would not that be the natural tendency? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Have you any other experiments going on in addition to the two-the horse breeding and the starting in to develop the cattle breeding? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. We have an experiment under way in connection with the experiment station of Maine in producing a variety of chickens which will be very great layers, producing 200 of more eggs during a year. The CHAIRMAN. I suppose you treat them as animals? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You take the term "animal" in the appropriation bill as generic in including the whole animal kingdom? Doctor MELVIN. Yes, sir; in this respect. We do under our appropriation a great deal of work along the lines of investigating |