Government who are covered by current law, I think the relief should be considered from that standpoint. There is also the factor of social security. If their age is over 65, old-age security would apply. So that there are two of those other avenues open.

Mr. OLIVER. SO, General, as a matter of fact, the precedent which might come into the picture of this legislation when adopted would be more or less contracted by this legislative act—rather by those legislative acts-which have been enacted since the World War? General HINES. They would, to that extent.

Mr. OLIVER. Whereas these individuals have no protection. General HINES. For those who are hospitalized upon authority of the Employees' Compensation Commission, the Veterans' Administration is reimbursed for that hospitalization now under the new

statute.

The CHAIRMAN. General, these men were doing the same work that these identical men were doing, the same work, in the SpanishAmerican War, that our men in the Transport Service were doing in the World War?

General HINES. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. If a man in the World War had engaged in the Transport Service and had been discharged for disability incurred in line of duty he would have been compensated, would he not?

General HINES. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. These men were discharged for disability incurred in the line of duty conducting transports of soldiers to the Philippine Islands, as I understand?

General HINES. That is correct. That is my understanding.

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Birdsall has called my attention to a report. This type of bill was at one time before the Pension Committee of the House. It related primarily to contract surgeons. But the category covered all of those who might be covered by similar legislation. I might suggest that this list goes through all of the wars. In other words, it takes in a long list of those who served in the Civil War, the Indian War, in the Spanish-American War. Now, the SpanishAmerican War would cover certain nurse groups and include men nurses that are covered by contract, the Quartermaster Corps, and various civilians of the Quartermaster Corps, including packers, teamsters, surgeons, and assistant surgeons. Then, of course, with the Adjutant General's Department, they have certain civilian clerks. They also had those in the World War, American citizens with the Lafayette Expedition, which was small in number. This table, if the committee desires it, might be inserted in the record. It is a long one and covers various bills that have been introduced contemplating legislation either for pensions, hospitalization, or domiciliary care in all of the wars from the Civil War up to and including the World War.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean all the bills introduced or legislation that has been passed?

General HINES. All of the bills of which we had record from the Sixty-fifth Congress which were introduced. Very few were reported out of the committees or had reports requested on them.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, General, unless you desire it, I do not desire to encumber the record.

General HINES. Well, I would not care to insert it but simply to answer Congressman Oliver's questions as regards categories.

Mr. BRYSON. How is that document designated?

General HINES. Hearing on H. R. 6948 before the Pension Committee, and it was brought up in connection with the desire of the contract surgeons.

The CHAIRMAN. What was that?

General HINES. This was printed January 21, 1938.

The CHAIRMAN. General, while we are on this subject, may I ask you another question? I know on this hospital proposition that the members of the Civilian Conservation Corps and other governmental employees are being hospitalized in veterans' hospitals. Who pays for that?

General HINES. They all reimburse the Veterans' Administration at $3.75 a day. That is a reciprocal rate established by the Federal Board of Hospitalization. Those are very small in number. They come to us, of course, from the Civilian Conservation Corps, and we have some 25,000 veterans serving in that organization.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

General HINES. Some are veterans and some are nonveterans. Here is a report, November 30, 1939, under hospitalization, 55,818 individuals. Out of that number there were 303 hospitalized.

The CHAIRMAN. Three hundred and three what?

General HINES. Three hundred and three nonveterans.
The CHAIRMAN. Out of the 56,000?

General HINES. Out of the 56,000. But for all of them under the existing law the Veterans' Administration will be compensated for their hospitalization.

The CHAIRMAN. Even if they are veterans themselves?

General HINES. If they are hospitalized at the request of the War Department as members of the Civilian Conservation Corps, we would be reimbursed for it. Now, up until last year, you remember Congressman Van Zandt raised the issue last year and I told the Committee we would endeavor to have an agreement whereby whenever we make examinations for the Civil Service Commission or furnish hospitalization to civilian employees for the Employees' Compensation Commission that we should be compensated for it and that I was working that out with the Budget. That has been accomplished and the last one to be brought in line was the Civil Service Commission, when the Congress just authorized this year the transfer of funds to cover any medical service provided that agency.

Now this is a reciprocal proposition, Mr. Chairman, the Army and Navy Departments do a great deal for the veteran. They furnish beds in practically all of their institutions. In many cases where the Civilian Conservation Corps men, and they make up the greatest number of nonveterans, receive injuries, they have no hospitals nearby. They are practically emergency cases of men who are injured, probably with a broken limb or some severe emergency case which requires immediate attention. I feel that it is not handicapping our hospitalization. It is true it takes 303 beds that would be occupied by veterans but nevertheless to make up the additional beds which are furnished by the Army and Navy, which probably might be held for those same men, would probably keep the Army and Navy from allotting the full number of beds to us.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you, where there are no veterans' facilities available you send these men to private hospitals, do you not?

General HINES. I do not know what they do with those. I have nothing to do with the hospitalization of the Civilian Conservation Corps. I imagine they would send them to a civilian hospital.

The CHAIRMAN. I was wondering if you had any information as to what the average charges are by these private hospitals?

General HINES. It is much higher. We have information on that. We analyzed that problem at one time for the committee. I think it was shown as against the average rate of a little over $3 in the Veterans' Administration facilities, even allowing for initial investment, depreciation, and so on, that civilian hospital rates averaged between $5 and $6 per day.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, the reason I am asking you these questions, invariably we hear the charge made that the Civilian Conservation Corps, and other governmental agencies, are taking beds that are now needed by veterans and, after all, shoving the veterans aside. I just want to get the facts into the record.

General HINES. Mr. Chairman, the veteran has a preference in all cases. If we had two emergency cases, one a request from the War Department, for hospitalization of a member of the Civilian Conservation Corps as against a veteran, we would hospitalize the veteran, and the veteran with a service-connected disability has preference all the way through.

The CHAIRMAN. These are all emergency cases, are they?

General HINES. They are.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you put into the record a table showing how many of them are in each hospital?

General HINES. Yes; I will be glad to break this down. I have here the number in our own institutions.

(The table referred to is as follows:)

Non-Veterans' Administration beneficiaries hospitalized in Veterans' Administration facilities, Nov. 30, 1939

Non-Veterans' Administration beneficiaries hospitalized in Veterans' Administration facilities, Nov. 30, 1939-Continued.

The CHAIRMAN. General, I would not mind hearing you; I do not know how much time you are going to want to take or how much time the committee wants to take, but, as you know, this committee is charged exclusively with the responsibility for legislation touching on veterans' hospitalization.

General HINES. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. And I would like to hear you or have you put your remarks in the record discussing the veterans' facilities and the needs and what, if anything, it is necessary for Congress to do.

General HINES. Well, I would be very glad to give you a summary at this time, and then I am sure that the committee would like to proceed with some of these other bills.

Mr. WELCH. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the General just one brief question before he proceeds with the other matters?

The CHAIRMAN. I believe we can stretch the rule and permit that. Mr. WELCH. I understand it is a courtesy, and I appreciate it. General, you referred to teamsters and others who served in the Quartermaster Corps or under the jurisdiction of the Quartermaster General during the War with Spain, the Philippine Insurrection, or the China Relief Expedition, that they might be eligible under the provisions of this bill.

General HINES. You may have misunderstood, Mr. Congressman; I did not say they would be eligible under the provisions of this

particular bill. They might, if this bill became law, as they might use it as a precedent for demands for similar legislation to cover other groups.

Mr. WELCH. This bill expressly limits the eligibles to those who served on vessels owned by the United States.

General HINES. That is correct; in the Quartermasters transport service.

Mr. WELCH. The great difference as I see it in connection with the distinction between civilians who served in the Quartermasters Corps. during the World War is that under our laws they can be compensated and laws have been passed to provide compensation. But there were no compensation laws during the Spanish-American War. These men received no compensation from any source. I know that, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, because I have had considerable to do with workmen's compensation laws. I was the author of the constitutional amendment for the workmen's compensation law in the State of California and that was thirty-odd years ago. It was the second State in the Union to adopt workmen's compensation. So I will repeat, at the time of the Spanish-American War, 40 years ago, there was no compensation law in existence. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your courtesy.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. We are glad to have you.

All right, General Hines.

General HINES. Briefly, as to hospitalization by the Veterans' Administration at this time, we are operating 84 institutions. Within the next year or 14 months we contemplate bringing in something over 9,000 additional beds.

The CHAIRMAN. How many beds have you now?

General HINES. We have over 72,000 of all categories in our own facilities. That includes domiciliary as well as hospital. I have chart before us breaking that down. If you desire, this one is very extensive and well concentrated and could be put in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe I will ask you to do that, General. (The table referred to is as follows:)