Mr. RAKER. Although

Colonel KELLY. Some year it might have been less than 7,500,000 acre-feet under the terms of that proposition.

Mr. RAKER. That is what I am trying to get at; it might run for two years.

Colonel KELLY. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. There have been 9,000,000, 11,000,000, then 12,000,000. Now, having a series of years of about that kind, the lower basin could be practically deprived of the water; is not that right?

Colonel KELLY. When that ultimate development comes on; yes. Mr. RAKER. I just want the facts to appear before the committee so there can not be any doubt about it. Now, regarding the river, how far down the river have you been, Colonel, commencing with Yuma?

Colonel KELLY. Below Yuma?

Mr. RAKER. Yes, sir.

Colonel KELLY. I have only been down on the Imperial Levee a few miles below the railroad crossing.

Mr. RAKER. Beyond Yuma, upstream, how far have you been on the river?

Colonel KELLY. I have visited the principal dam sites under discussion, leaving out those that have been set forth by the recent trip of the Geological Survey.

Mr. RAKER. Well, did you go on that trip?

Colonel KELLY. No, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Have you sailed or boated on the Colorado River any? Colonel KELLY. I have never gone down by boat; I have visited the Lees Ferry site, Marble Canyon site, Diamond Creek, the Black and Boulder Canyons, the Bulls Head, Parker, and then at the lower crossing around Yuma-Laguna Dam.

Mr. RAKER. What I ask is, have you boated any on the Colorado River?

Colonel KELLY. I have never made a trip by water on the Colorado River.

Mr. RAKER. I will still put it another way: Have you boated any distance on any part of the Colorado River?

Colonel KELLY. Only to cross it, that is all.

Mr. RAKER. In a boat?

Colonel KELLY. In a boat.

Mr. RAKER. How long since?

Colonel KELLY. Well, the time that I made the trip was two years ago.

Mr. RAKER. All right. I will put it this way, Colonel: From the mouth of the river, the Gulf of California, up, say, to Lees Ferry, have you made any investigation to see how many obstructions there are in the river that would have to be removed to clear it for navigation if you put in locks, if you kept the flow of the stream in shape, and there was not to be permitted to be taken out the water that has been taken and is contemplated?

Colonel KELLY. Well, the river is obstructed in its natural condition for navigation in many places. Of course, through several months of the year below Yuma there is practically no water in the river. The Laguna Dam is an absolute obstruction to the passage

of boats up and down the river, but boats have passed up as far as Old Coleville.

Mr. RAKER. Where is that?

Colonel KELLY. That is between the Black and Boulder Canyons. Mr. RAKER. That is, from the mouth up to Coleville?

Colonel KELLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Of course, the Laguna Dam is an obstruction that has been placed in the river.

Colonel KELLY. That has been placed in the river since. The navigation up to Coleville was extremely difficult and tedious. The last stretch coming up through Black Canyon the current is very swift and in order to get through there they had ring bolts fastened to the canyon walls to help haul themselves up.

Mr. RAKER. The Laguna Dam has assisted in obstructing the navigability of the river?

Colonel KELLY. It is a complete obstruction.

Mr. RAKER. And also the diversion to the Imperial Valley has been another means of obstruction?

Colonel KELLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. So what has been done has been done to obstruct the navigation rather than to expedite navigation.

Colonel KELLY. What has been done practically puts navigation out of possibility except on certain stretches of the river.

Mr. RAKER. Yes.

Colonel KELLY. Isolated stretches.

Mr. RAKER. But that does not affect the question of whether or not the river has been heretofore navigable and would be navigable now if the obstructions were taken out.

Colonel KELLY. That is correct.

Mr. RAKER. In other words, Colonel, it could be called a navigable river as far as the United States is concerned?

Colonel KELLY. It is legally a navigable river and is so treated by the War Department. The Imperial district has since 1915, I think, been getting a permit from the War Department every year to put in a temporary dam below their intake works.

Mr. RAKER. Now it is navigable in law, so held by all the departments and the Government, and until these obstructions had been placed in it was navigable in fact clear up to Coleville?

Colonel KELLY. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. Now, just a few questions and then I am through. Let us take Mojave. Now Mojave is the same place at Topock or Needles, is it not, as a dam site?

Colonel KELLY. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. The three are interchangeable. Now, what is that elevation?

Colonel KELLY. The water surface is about 425 feet above sea at

that point.

Mr. RAKER. How high a dam could be placed at this place before it would interfere with the backwater at Black Canyon?

Colonel KELLY. The water surface at the Black Canyon Dam is 645 feet above sea level, the difference being 220 feet.

Mr. RAKER. So that a dam could be placed at Mojave 220 feet before it would interfere with the back water at Boulder Canyon or Black Canyon?

Colonel KELLY. That is correct, but I think that is higher than a dam would ever be built at that site.

Mr. RAKER. Now, there is no place in between Black Canyon and Mojave where there would be a place for a dam or reservoir, is there? Colonel KELLY. The Bulls Head site in Pyramid Canyon is one of those proposed as a reregulation dam.

Mr. RAKER. By you?

Colonel KELLY. By the Reclamation Service.

Mr. RAKER. But if the dam suggested by you was placed in at Mojave and then one was placed at Bulls Head for some purpose, neither one of those would interfere with the Black Canyon?

Colonel KELLY. Of course, Mojave and Bulls Head would not both be built. The difference in elevation between the two sites is only 70 feet. If you built Bulls Head, Mojave could only be 70 feet. I say if Mojave is built Bulls Head would not be built. Bulls Head was proposed by the Reclamation Service as a reregulating dam in connection with their 600-foot Boulder Canyon dam.

Mr. RAKER. So then there would be no interference by building a dam at Black Canyon by any of the dams that might be built below? Mr. KELLY. There is no interference, but there might be a loss of head in the river.

Mr. RAKER. I do not get that now, Colonel. I want to find if there is any loss of fall by any kind of a dam you wanted to build below Boulder Canyon, if you built it either at Bulls Head or Mojave or Parker.

Colonel KELLY. Well, I will put it this way: At the Mojave site you probably would not build a dam more than 180 feet high. I am not sure it should be built that high. It will lie somewhere be

tween 100 and 180 feet. Now, the pool level from that dam will be several feet below the water surface at the Black Canyon site. There will be a loss of head of perhaps 40 feet or more in Black Canyon.

Mr. RAKER. I get you. Well, now, that could be taken up if your suggestion was carried out and a further examination was made from below Black Canyon; you might go down there and still take up this difference in elevation and at the same time get a dam of sufficient height not only for power but for storage.

Colonel KELLY. That is correct.

Mr. RAKER. Now, between that point and Black Canyon or Boulder Canyon could a dam be built at either of these places before it would interfere with the next upstream best location for a dam site for power?

Colonel KELLY. Well, the next possible location for a dam site above Boulder Canyon is Pierces Ferry. That is reported to be rather an unfavorable-looking site. The probabilities are that the depth of foundations will be rather great and the side walls are not sufficiently high to justify a dam over 200 feet high, or in that neighborhood.

Mr. RAKER. What point is that?

Colonel KELLY. That is Pierces Ferry. The water surface at Pierces Ferry is 905 feet. The next site above that that has been suggested is Devils Slide. At the Devils Slide the water surface is about 1,030 feet above sea level.

Mr. RAKER. And the next above Devils Slide?

Colonel KELLY. Spencer Canyon.

Mr. RAKER. And the next above that?

Colonel KELLY. Bridge Canyon.

Mr. RAKER. Now, how high could you build a dam at Black Canyon before it would interfere with Diamond Creek site?

Colonel KELLY. Well, Diamond Creek is 1,330 feet above sea level and Black Canyon 645. That means a dam 685 feet high.

Mr. RAKER. Well, now, if you built a dam then at Boulder Canyon, you would only affect Boulder Canyon, Devils Slide, and Spencer Canyon, and then Bridge Canyon and Diamond Creek could still be built; is that right?

Colonel KELLY. Well, of course, Bridge Canyon and Diamond Creek can not both be built together; one or the other could be built. Mr. RAKER. Then to build a dam at Boulder Canyon 605 feet high it would eliminate the two sites, or possibly three, Boulder Canyon, Devils Slide, and Spencer Canyon?

Colonel KELLY. That is correct, but I do not consider that these sites the elimination of these sites-means anything except as they may fit into a development that would use the full fall in the river. Mr. RAKER. What I was trying to get at, if you build a dam at Black Canyon, say 605 feet high, just what would you lose in regard to fall for the purpose of developing power as compared to what you would gain by the fact of storage of water from three to five years, as well as providing for silting, as well as providing for domestic purposes? Would not these that I have named overcome and benefit be greater from them than it would be from the amount you might lose in the difference in the height by virtue. of building the high dam at Boulder Canyon instead of building a low dam?

Colonel KELLY. Well, I gave some figures on that yesterday, and I would like to put this table into the record. There are two tables I have here.

Mr. RAKER. I ask that they go in, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, that will be done.

Colonel KELLY. And they give the basis on which these results are reached.

Comparative plans of Bureau of Reclamation for development of Colorado River below Diamond Creek (assuming up-river storage developed)

The average evaporation loss Topock to Yuma, 1922-23, 1,700,000 acre feet. Overflowed area, 306,000 acres. Overflow area, Mohave Valley, 62,500 acres; Cottonwood Valley, 9,500 acres-total 72,000 acres. Present evaporation loss may be taken; Mohave Valley, 310,000; Cottonwood Valley, 40,000; total, 350,000 acre-feet.