kind of money that it takes to evaluate what can be done. Any big business needs to do this.

Mr. LATTA. That is all.

Mr. YOUNG. Would the gentleman yield?

I presume after that there would be a great deal of trial and error. Mr. BROOKS. Yes. What can be done for Congress ultimately would not be done in the first cycle. I don't imagine that we will have the truly comprehensive system in being for at least in 10 years. If we have the first cycle done in 5 years we will be lucky.

Mr. YOUNG. We may never see an ultimate finished product. Maybe the thing has to be changed from year to year, from period to period as we go along.

Mr. BROOKS. That is right. They update the programs, put in new software, buy new hardware, change the system to meet current requirements.

Mr. YOUNG. But it is time to start?

Mr. BROOKS. It is high time to start because it costs us money every day we do not.

Mr. YOUNG. That is all; thank you.

Mr. SISK. Thank you, Jack, very much. We appreciate your testimony. We will continue to confer with you.

The next witness this morning is Congressman Barber Conable. Congressman Conable, we are very happy to have you with us. I will say, on behalf of some of our colleagues who are in the audience now waiting, that we have a rather long list this morning and we hope to go as far as we can possibly all day. Most of you know, of course, we do have the foreign aid bill on the floor. I know many of the Members are going to be interested in that. We are going to go as far as we can, try to give an opportunity to be heard to all of the Members of Congress. We will be happy to hear from you at this time. Without objection, your statement will be made a part of the record in full, and you may read it or summarize.

STATEMENT OF HON. BARBER B. CONABLE, JR., A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW YORK

Mr. CONABLE. I am grateful that I was near the top of the list. I think probably there are a good many people who want to be heard on this issue. I realize that a good deal of the testimony is likely to be repetitive since it deals with a specific proposal which is before us. I am grateful for the work of this subcommittee. I think you have earnestly and diligently moved to meet a need. There is a good deal of malaise about government abroad in our land. I think the credibility of our institutions has fallen into serious doubt. I think many people feel that representative government has got hardening of the arteries. It is important that a democratic institution be constantly renewed and reexamined by those who are most concerned with it.

I do have a 4-page statement, Mr. Chairman, and I would like that to be made a part of the record. I also have four specific proposed amendments that I would like to submit to you, which I will summarize extensively.

Mr. SISK. Thank you. We would like to have you enumerate the

proposed amendments. We want those also to be made a part of the record.

(Mr. Conable's prepared statement and the amendments attached thereto follow :)

STATEMENT OF REPRESENTATIVE BARBER B. CONABLE, JR. (37тH DISTRICT, NEW YORK) ON THE LEGISLATIVE REORGANIZATION ACT OF 1970, BEFORE THE SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON LEGISLATIVE REORGANIZATION OF THE HOUSE RULES COMMITTEE, ON NOVEMBER 20, 1969

I have followed with interest the work of this Subcommittee. It is a prodigious task to modernize procedures in so venerable an institution as Congress, but significant changes are necessary to improve the effectiveness and responsiveness of Congress in meeting the demands of the people for solutions to the nation's problems. It has been more than 20 years since there has been any major organizational change of Congress and yet the nation has experienced a communications and management revolution during that period. Congress must catch up and bring its decision-making processes up to date. I compliment the Subcommittee for its significant efforts to bring this about. The provisions of the Subcommittee's bill should improve our legislative processes and there are several sections which deserve special mention.

I note that the bill enumerates a procedure whereby a majority of members of a committee may call a meeting of the committee without the consent of the chairman. This provision is made more meaningful by its necessary companion in the bill-a provision allowing a member other than the chairman to be recognized by the Speaker for the purpose of bringing legislation before the House. These sections bring a greater degree of democracy to the committee system and permit consideration of certain pieces of legislation which may not otherwise emerge.

Other sections of the bill assure a greater degree of equity in committee proceedings. I believe it is necessary to allow the minority to call witnesses at some point in the hearings and this has been provided in some measure. I note that there is a means of enforcing this by allowing points of order to be made against a bill for irregularities in committee. By allowing the minority these important rights, the committee has provided that legislation reported from a committee will more nearly represent the spectrum of ideas held by the members. I have sponsored a bill to change the fiscal year to the calendar year and therefore I am pleased to find that this Subcommittee is in agreement with the proposal. I hope that its enactment will reduce the damage caused by delay in enacting appropriations bills which is becoming a chronic ailment in the financing of the government.

While I feel that the bill as a whole does begin the job of modernization, there are other specific sections which I believe should be improved. I have prepared amendments which I will submit for the Committee's consideration dealing with public announcement of votes in committees, minority staffing, minority views on conference reports and establishment of a permanent Joint Committee on Congressional Organization.

Section 104 of the bill, as it presently stands, requires only announcement of the vote taken in committee as a total number in favor and opposed to reporting a bill. While this is an improvement over the present system, I would prefer that the reform be complete so that the stand of each member is made public. Other sections of the bill would institute changes leading to greater disclosure to the public of the deliberations of the committees and the House as a whole. The steps taken concerning broadcasting of committee and House meetings and the sections dealing with open committee meetings and hearings indicate a laudable intention to publicize our legislative activities to a greater extent. In order to be consistent, I feel that votes in committee should be made public so that each member's opinion is disclosed. I agree with the Subcommittee's position on open committee hearings and meetings. The executive session has been retained for use for urgent reasons and this is necessary, but at the same time the results of that activity should be fully available. By revealing the results of all committee votes on bills and amendments, there would be public disclosure of the most vital information.

The Joint Committee on the Organization of Congress in its final report to the 89th Congress recommended a change in committee voting similar to the one I have proposed. It was stated in the report at page 11:

"Even in executive session, a committee and its individual members should be publicly accountable for their actions. The 1946 Act requires the committee to maintain a record of the votes on any question on which a record vote is demanded. The public is entitled to an anouncement of those votes by members following the meetings. The committee report should also include a tabulation of all recorded votes and the vote of each member. This should encourage more active and responsible participation by all committee members."

A provision to enact the Joint Committee's recommendation has been included in previous reorganization bill and I hope that it will be inserted into the measure reported by this Committee. I do not feel that the present provision for reporting only the vote taken on the question to report a bill sufficiently discloses to the public all the important information on committee activities.

The second change which I wish to propose to the Subcommittee would provide for minority views to be filed as part of a conference report. Section 119 of the bill carries out a recommendation made by the Joint Committee on the Organization of Congress by providing for half the time allotted for discussion of a conference report to be given over to the minority party. Page 25 of the Joint Committee's report states on this matter:

"Fair play demands that the minority viewpoint be fully expressed at each stage of the legislative process. This is particularly true at the last stage-the debate and vote on a conference report. . . . The remedy to prevent any rare instances of abuse is to provide the minority equal time as a matter of right for the floor debate on a conference report."

As an extension of this policy of fair play, I propose that supplementary views be inserted as an appendix to the conference report so that when there is any question of disagreement it shall be known before the time comes to vote on the report.

The conference report has a dual role for it summarizes both the decisions made in conference and the consensus of the majority of the conferees. Inasmuch as the report states opinion, a minority should be allowed space in the report to state the arguments made against the majority's stand as well as to inform the House of any abuse that may have occurred in conference.

This language I propose has appeared in previous reorganization bills and it is a necessary addition to language the subcommittee has already included in the bill.

My third point concerns the provision for professional and clerical committee staff for the minority. The Subcommittee has assured the right of the minority to have two additional permanent professional staff members and one additional clerical staff member assigned to the committee, but it has not done so in as strong a manner as have past reorganization bills. The Subcommittee's provision does not grant the minority full control over its staff and I suggest that language giving the minority control over its staff be inserted in Section 302. As it stands, the Subcommittee bill vests final control of the hiring and firing of minority staff members in the majority of the committee they serve. I believe this does not serve to carry out fully the recommendations of the Joint Committee for there is no certainty that the minority position will be fully accommodated under these provisions. I quote from the report of the Joint Committee, page 21:

"It was the intent of the 1946 act that committee staff should be professional and nonpartisan. . . . Most standing committees of both Houses have observed this requirement. Staff vacancies on these committees have been filled on a nonpartisan basis and the staff has served the needs of both majority and minority members. Many committees have staff members who have served through several changes of party control.

"Unfortunately, on other committees the minority has been denied access to adequate staff. It is fundamental to our legislative system that the opposition have adequate resources to prepare informed dissent or alternative courses of action. All sides of an issue need to be forcefully presented.

the minority should be entitled to appoint two professional staff positions and one clerical position as a safeguard for their rights. On many committees, it will not be necessary for this safeguard to be exercised."

In light of the intent of the committee to safeguard the rights of the minority, I do not feel adequate representation of the minority point of view is assured when the majority has final power of approval over selection of persons for minority staff positions, nor do I feel it is desirable to allow the majority the power to terminate the services of minority staff members. These two powers would allow emasculation of the right of a minority at the whim of the majority. The Joint Committee sought specifically to grant the minority a right of representation on committees which had provided for no minority staff, and I do not feel the power of approval or termination of minority staff is properly in the hands of the majority of such committees. The power to hire and fire should be solely in the hands of the people whom the staff members are supposed to serve so as to assure representation of the minority point of view.

My final recommendation for change is a proposal that a permament Joint Committee on Congressional Operations should be created so that deficiencies in congressional functioning can regularly be pointed out and solutions proffered to ease these problems. We know the upheaval that a massive reorganization bill can bring and this is due in part to the lack of a regular overseer of congressional activity. It would be much less difficult to make the changes as they are noted and proposed by a body having regular responsibility for such affairs. The proposals we are now making for improving the practices of the House are only a beginning; renewal and self-improvement must be a continuing responsibility of a regular organization committee.

As in the other suggestions I have raised before this committee, this one has a firm ground in the report of the Joint Committee on the Organization of Congress. The report states, page 45:

...

... a number of witnesses urged that provision be made for continuing examination of the organization and operations of the Congress, with a view to recommending changes that would help keep the Congress in step with modern and rapidly changing techniques. . . In our judgment, it is essential that the Congress establish a centrally constituted agency under which certain existing functions can be consolidated, and which can be charged with new and important functions that significantly involve the Congress as an institution, as well as continuing scrutiny of its organization and operations

The committee I propose is that proposed in H.R. 6278, a bipartisan committee composed of six members of each House of Congress. The party division shall be equal so that committee's recommendations will stand the best chance of being finally approved by the membership of Congress based on nonpartisan considerations. Along these lines, I propose that the chairmanship be alternated between the two Houses to assure a broad representation of points of view. The vice-chairman will always be of the party other than the chairman's.

When this bill comes to the floor, I hope that it will come under an open rule. I understand that the Committee has indicated that will be the case, and I commend it for this decision. On a bill which so directly affects every member of Congress it is necessary to have the full range of opinion expressed on every subject in order to produce a bill which achieves the desired end of congressional reform in the most satisfactory manner. An open rule is the surest way to make certain that this important step is taken in a forceful and affirmative way.

The committee has obviously labored arduously on this extremely sensitive and complex subject. While I believe the present bill will provide improvement, I also believe that it can be more effective in the areas I have discussed. Legislation proposing change in congressional organization always generates a confrontation between political reality and the hope for comprehensive reform. This bill, with my amendments, reconciles the two forces in such a way that I am certain it can be passed and will produce significant reforms. I thank the members of the Subcommittee for this opportunity to discuss this important issue.

PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT OF COMMITTEE VOTES

SEC. 104(b), clause 27(b) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House of Representatives is amended by adding at the end thereof the following:

"The results of roll call votes taken in any meeting of any committee upon any measure, or any amendment thereto, shall be announced publicly at the conclusion of that meeting, and such announcement shall include a tabulation of the votes cast in favor of and the votes cast in opposition to each such measure and amendment by each member of the committee who was present at that meeting."

CONFERENCE REPORTS

SEC. 119 (b) (1), paragraph (c) of clause 1 of Rule XXVIII of the Rules of the House of Representatives is amended to read as follows:

"(c) Each report made by a committee of conference to the House shall be printed as a report of the House. As so printed, such report shall be accompanied by an explanatory statement prepared jointly by the conferees on the part of the House and the conferees on the part of the Senate. Such statement shall be sufficiently detailed and explicit to inform the House as to the effect which the amendments or propositions contained in such report will have upon the measure to which those amendments or proposition relate. If any conferee on the part of the House desires to submit to the House an additional individual explanatory statement with respect to any such report, such individual statement may be filed as an appendix to and shall be printed together with, the explanatory statement of the committee of conference, if such individual statement is available at the time of the filing of the report of the committee of conference to the House."

Page 79:

AMENDMENTS TO SECTION 302

Line 2, strike the words "not more than"

Lines 7-13, strike all language beginning after the words "person so selected" to the sentence beginning "Each professional staff member".

Page 80 Lines 3-5, strike all language

Page 81 Lines 3-9, strike all language beginning after the words "person so selected" to the sentence beginning "Each clerk appointed”.

Page 82 Lines 6 & 7, strike the words "and acceptable to the committee”.

TITLE IV. CONGRESS AS AN INSTITUTION

PART 9. JOINT COMMITTEE ON CONGRESSIONAL OPERATIONS ESTABLISHMENT OF JOINT COMMITTEE ON CONGRESSIONAL OPERATIONS SEC. 491. (a) There is hereby created a Joint Committee on Congressional Operations (hereafter in this Part referred to as the "Joint Committee"). (b) The Joint Committee shall be composed of twelve members as follows:

(1) six Members of the Senate, appointed by the President pro tempore of the Senate; two from the Committee on Government Operations of the Senate, two from the Committee on Rules and Administration of the Senate, and two from among the remaining Members of the Senate (including but not limited to members of the committees referred to in this paragraph); and

(2) six Members of the House of Representatives, appointed by the Speaker of the House of Representatives; two from the Committee on Government Operations of the House of Representatives, two from the Committee on House Administration of the House of Representatives, and two from among the remaining Members of the House of Representatives (including but not limited to members of the committees referred to in this paragraph).

(c) Of each class of two members referred to in subsection (b), one shall be from the political party having the greatest number, and one shall be from the political party having the second greatest number, of Members of the Senate, or of the House of Representatives, as the case may be.

(d) Vacancies in the membership of the Joint Committee shall not affect the power of the remaining members to execute the functions of the Joint Committee and shall be filled in the same manner as in the case of the original appointment. (e) The Joint Committee shall select a chairman and a vice chairman from among its members at the beginning of each Congress. The vice chairman shall act in the place and stead of the chairman in the absence of the chairman. The chairmanship and the vice chairmanship shall alternate between the Senate and the House of Representatives with each Congress. The chairman during each even-numbered Congress shall be selected by the Members of the House of Representatives on the Joint Committee from among their number and the chairman during each odd-numbered Congress shall be elected by the Members of the Senate on the Joint Committee from among their number. The vice chairman