Commissioner DALY. Exactly.

Senator THOMAS of Utah. What do you mean by that?

Commissioner DALY. The attitude of the union toward the master of a ship certainly is communistic, either through the delegates or through the shore officials.

Senator THOMAS of Utah. Do you mean that their aim is sometime to have the ownership of the ship?

Commissioner DALY. Yes.

Senator THOMAS of Utah. What do you mean by "communistic" in the ordinary sense? Just unruliness?

Commissioner DALY. Something that tends to take away from the authorized man the authority he is supposed to have.

Senator THOMAS of Utah. Do you think that the Maritime Union, for example, is actually aiming to get control of all the ships and to do away with the ownership in the sense that we have it under the private property system?

Commissioner DALY. No; I would not put it that way, Sir, because they have no money to run the vessels.

Senator THOMAS of Utah. They will not need any money, will they? Commissioner DALY. It is just a question of getting as much out of the steamship owners as they possibly can get.

Senator VANDENBERG. If that is all they are doing, I do not blame them at all.

Commissioner DALY. In addition to that, they are taking away from the captain the full authority to run his ship in the way he ought to run it.

Senator VANDENBERG. That is the important thing. Now, let me ask you this: You have had a long experience, and I wish you would consider your answer before you make it. Would you say that these new conditions that have rather recently developed in respect to shipping will ultimately, if left uncurbed, affect the safety of life at sea through a breakdown in ship discipline?

Commissioner DALY. Yes, sir; I would.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your answer?
Commissioner DALY. Yes, sir; I would.

The CHAIRMAN. A very prominent man said to me the other day: "There is no discipline. It has ceased to exist."

Do you believe that?

Commissioner DALY. There are still some masters who are able to keep discipline; but discipline on the whole, as it was observed all through my training as a boy and a man, does not exist.

The CHAIRMAN. There is in effect a marked difference, is there not, between your experience now in your office and your experience of several years ago?

Commissioner DALY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The other day, Commander Field, you spoke of the Atlantic case, in which the deck officers and the engineers turned off the steam and went on a strike. Because the captain failed actually to issue an order, you could not prove any violation of law; is that correct?

Commander FIELD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You had to drop the case, in consequence?
Commander FIELD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you feel that that was an important case and that it was unfortunate that there was not some way of dealing with it? Commander FIELD. I certainly do.

The CHAIRMAN. You said a while ago another thing that struck me. You said that we do not need more law; that there is plenty of law. If there is plenty of law, why could you not deal with that case?

Commander FIELD. Well, the elements of that case were like this: The ship was supposed to sail the next day. At noon on this particular day the steam was turned off for the winches, and all the officers of the ship, with the exception of the master and the chief engineer, told the captain that they had been required to work overtime for which they had had no recognition and had received no assurances that they would be paid; that the custom in that ship on voyages similar to the one on which she was about to embark involved considerable overtime work on the part of the officers; and that unless they were assured that they would be paid for their overtime and would not be required to work overtime except with their own consent, they were not going to sail that ship.

If the captain had done what a master should do-issue an order to each one of those people to resume his duty to do so and so; give him some specific order; inform him of his rights; and he has a right to his discharge if he is dissatisfied; and to inform him of the fact that his license is hazarded if he continues in disobedience that is what you would expect a master to do. That is the custom and tradition of the sea, and there are laws governing the case.

Instead of that, the captain just threw up his hands and did nothing. At intervals he would call the men up to his room and say, "What are you going to do?" They would say, "We are waiting until you settle our question of overtime.”

Certainly as a person who has been to sea and is familiar with discipline, if I could have tried that case in my own mind and reached the decision-you might call it a curbstone decision-I wouldhave found those people guilty of technical disobedience of orders because they stopped work and thereby interfered with the movements of the ship to the hindrance of commerce, as it is expressed in one place in the law.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there something specific in the shipping articles about what they have to do?

Commander FIELD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. If a man signs shipping articles, when he goes on the ship he is expected to be obedient?

Commander FIELD. Yes; and if they have any grievance, they shall make it known in an orderly manner to the captain.

Senator VANDENBERG. Has your entire experience been in United States Navy ships?

Commander FIELD. Yes.

Senator VANDENBERG. I wonder if you are in a position, then, fully to appreciate what the commander in the private merchant marine is up against.

Commander FIELD. No, sir; I have never been to sea as an officer of the merchant marine.

Senator VANDENBERG. You have been clothed with an authority which is far superior to anything that these gentlemen probably feel they possess; is that not true?

Commander FIELD. Yes. A merhant marine officer, who is also a member of the Naval Reserve, told me not long ago that he had recently made a 2-weeks' practice cruise in a Navy ship. He said, "It was astonishing to me to see that whenever an officer told a man to do something, it was immediately done without any question."

Senator VANDENBERG. Do you remember the question I asked the Commissioner? Would you answer that question in the same way he did about safety at sea?

Commander FIELD. Yes, sir. If the conditions as they exist today are allowed to continue to get worse, they will seriously affect the safety of life at sea.

Senator VANDENBERG. All right. Then what would you recommend that we do to stop that trend?

Commander FIELD. I wish I knew the answer to that.

Senator VANDENBERG. Suppose you think that over and answer it a little later.

Commander FIELD. All right.

Senator VANDENBERG. May I ask you this: Was there any protest received in your Bureau in connection with the recent accident to the President Hoover?

Commander FIELD. No, sir. As soon as the President Hoover was grounded and it was apparent that the ship was going to be a total loss, we made plans and ordered an investigation board to meet in San Francisco. That board is now ready to conduct an investigation into the grounding of the ship. An assistant director of the Bureau has gone out there to be present when the first contingent of the crew arrives about the 7th of January.

Incident to the grounding of the ship, and after some passengers and members of the crew had been taken to Manila, we saw statements in the press that some passengers had stated that after the ship had grounded some members of the crew had broken into the ship's bar, taken some liquor, and got drunk; and that while the passengers and part of the crew were on the little island where the ship grounded, some members of the crew had conducted themselves in an unbecoming manner in the presence of the passengers.

Senator VANDENBERG. And even threatened to molest some of the women passengers?

Commander FIELD. There was some hint to that effect.
Senator VANDENBERG. Yes.

Commander FIELD. Then I arranged through the War Department as to Manila and through the State Department as to Hongkong to question passengers and crew members not in connection with the navigation of the ship but as to alleged cases of misconduct on the part of anybody; and that in the event they found anyone with any derogatory remarks, to get a sworn statement, the idea being to obtain these statements as soon as possible, in order to aid us in the conduct of the investigation which we will have when the substantial part of the personnel gets back to the United States.

The reply that I got from Manila was that all crew members had left there but that of six passengers interviewed, three reported minor incidents of misconduct on the part of the crew. I have yet to get through the State Department the results of interviews which the consul at Hongkong has undoubtedly secured by now. At any rate, we have not got them as yet. There was a large number of passengers

and crew at Hongkong at that time. A consignment of about 80 is going to arrive in San Francisco on the 7th of January, and 52 more will arrive in Seattle on the 19th of January. We are prepared to interview them and to hold such of them as seem to be material witnesses.

Senator VANDENBERG. In other words, you propose to go to the bottom of that entire situation?

Commander FIELD. Yes, sir. The principal thing, as it would appear from what we have heard, is the loss of this very valuable ship. We must inquire as to whether or not the master and the officers responsible for the navigating of the ship have been guilty of neglect, unskillfulness, and so forth, in the loss of that ship. Whatever incidents of misconduct, aside from the main issue of the loss of the ship, may develop in the course of this investigation will also be handled.

I believe of course, it does not make any difference what I believethat a good deal of that is exaggeration.

The CHAIRMAN. You believe what?

Commander FIELD. I believe that a good deal of that report of the activities of the crew is exaggeration, but that does not mean that I am going to be any less careful in making a thorough investigation of it. Senator VANDENBERG. Undoubtedly there is hysteria in a situation of that kind. That is understandable. But suppose you were to find cases authenticated along the line of these advance stories. What would happen?

Commander FIELD. As to the misconduct of men?

Senator VANDENBERG. Yes.

Commander FIELD. As far as the action which I am authorized by law to make is concerned, if there has been any misconduct or negligence or unskillfulness on the part of the personnel while acting under the authority of their license, as the law says, then, after trial, Ï am authorized to suspend or revoke their licenses; but wherever any criminality is indicated, we turn that over to the Department of Justice.

Senator MALONEY. Is there in the Department of Justice a particular branch having to do with maritime affairs?

Commander FIELD. No, sir; not exactly; but there is an Assistant Attorney General who looks out for all criminal proceedings.

Senator VANDENBERG. You leave me with one great perplexity. First you agree with the Commissioner that if the present trend toward break-down in discipline is not checked it will ultimately seriously involve the safety of life at sea. Having made that statement, you tell me you would not know what recommendation to make to us to assist in the correction of those trends. Then, in the same breath, you say that the existing law is sufficient.

Commander FIELD. I believe it is, sir. I believe that as soon as we can get control of this situation, get action on these trials, get them properly acted on and promptly acted on, we will be able to revoke or suspend the licenses of these sit-down strikers. That, I think, will go a long way toward correcting the situation.

Senator DONAHEY. Do you have any authority over the masters of ships?

Commander FIELD. Yes, sir.

Senator DONAHEY. If they lack intestinal fortitude, you can remove them, can you?

Commander FIELD. Not necessarily on that ground. Senator DONAHEY. You gave a very fine example of that a while ago when you mentioned the incident in the Canal Zone.

Commander FIELD. He has got what appears to be a very good defense in that he says that his command has been taken away from him by the action of the union.

Senator DONAHEY. They would not take it away from you without a fight if you were commander of that ship, would they?

Commader FIELD. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have to do with the enforcement of the articles of agreement? That is to say, could you in the trial of a case before your bureau give consideration to the fact that the articles of agreement have been violated?

Commader FIELD. Yes; of course.

The CHAIRMAN. The articles of agreement state:

And the said crew agree to conduct themselves in an orderly, faithful, honest, and sober manner, and to be at all times diligent in their respective duties, and to be obedient to the lawful commands of the said master, or of any person who shall lawfully succeed him, and of their superior officers in everything relating to the vessel, and the stores and cargo thereof, whether on board, in boats, or on shore; * * And it is also agreed that if any member of the crew considers himself to be aggrieved by any breach of the agreement or otherwise, he shall represent the same to the master or officer in charge of the vessel, in a quiet and orderly manner, who shall thereupon take such steps as the case may require.

*

I suppose that when you dealt with the case of the Atlantic and the failure of those men on board to do their duty, you gave consideration to the law as it is and to the articles of agreement?

Commander FIELD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It has been proposed to me by one in authority in the Government that there should be an addition to the maritime laws in order that the Government may deal effectively with sit-down strikes. The proposal is as follows:

1. Any two or more members of the crew of any merchant vessel of the United States, on the high seas, or on any other waters within the admiralty or maritime jurisdiction of the United States, who shall, by agreement or concert of action resist, refuse to obey, or by inaction refuse to carry out any lawful order or command of the master or other officer of such vessel, or refuse or neglect to perform their proper duties, or refuse or neglect to comply with the terms of their shipping articles, or other agreement for employment, shall be imprisoned not more than ---- months.

Suppose that had been in the law. These employees of the ship Atlantic neglected to perform their proper duties, did they? Was it the duty of the engineer to keep the steam on and to do certain things? Commander FIELD. Yes, sir, you can say that they neglected to perform their proper duties.

The CHAIRMAN. As I see it, the enlarged power lies mostly in that: That there is neglect of duty, not alone that there is refusal to do the same, or that there was neglect of the captain to issue orders; it is the actual neglect of the employees of the ship to do what they should do under the shipping articles.

Would it have been possible for you to go forward more energetically if you had had this much more law?

Commander FIELD. I think possibly so, yes, sir. There is always the question there of what is a lawful order.

Senator MALONEY. Commander, this will probably be difficult or embarassing for you to answer, but I should like to have some sort of answer if you can give it to me.