additional supplies of either crude or products. And again, my hope and expectation is that they will increase their shipment of crude and products from Venezuela to Western Europe, which would have the effect of increasing these percentages, assuming we do not get a decrease somewheres else along the line, I mean, in terms of movements around the Cape of Good Hope or something of that kind. But if everything else stays constant, and you can step up your shipments from Venezuela to Western Europe, these percentages would go up.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Do you think it is desirable that they should go up?

Mr. FLEMMING. I certainly do, Mr. Chairman. It seems to me that we are in a position where we want to do everything that we can do to assist Western Europe in dealing with this problem and certainly— pardon me.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Do you have reason to base that belief on information received from European governments?

Mr. FLEMMING. I do not, Mr. Chairman. I just simply assume that if we can step these percentages up, that we will be making a contribution to the strengthening, for example, of the NATO organization and to the strengthening of industrial production in the countries of Western Europe.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Which is very important, we all agree upon that.

Mr. FLEMMING. That is right.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Mr. Fowler's testimony was that he supposed that the countries would want 100 percent. But there is no definite evidence here supported by any of the witnesses of the Government organization which participated in the creation and in the administration of the plan or any word received except through OEEC, and that is not very definite or

Mr. FLEMMING. Any word as to what, Mr. Chairman?

Senator O'MAHONEY. As to what Western Europe needs.

Mr. FLEMMING. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Fowler has given us the best evidence that is available as to what he refers to here as the normal demand, and it seems to me that we can certainly assume that we would be strengthening their industrial economy, other aspects of their life, if we could do something that would get them up to normal demand.

But I think we should go back to this, that this country has been very frank with the countries of Western Europe, with the OEEC countries from the beginning when we said, "Look, we cannot solve your problem all by ourselves; our best estimate is that with the contribution that we can make, that you should get up to around 75 to 80 percent of your normal requirements."

Now if experience indicates to us that we can make contributions that will push them above 75 to 80 percent, I am sure everyone would regard that as good foreign policy and, naturally, we would want to do it, keeping in mind, Mr. Chairman, and I am sure you and the other members of the committee would agree with this, that we have insisted from the beginning that nothing must be done to jeopardize our own domestic supplies.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Clearly.

Mr. FLEMMING. And that one we have tried to emphasize all the way along, and I think that is the principle to which we must continue to adhere.

Senator O'MAHONEY. That is why I have been endeavoring to find out what, if any, precise goal we have and on whose authority we have it.

The only testimony, I say, which has been presented here are your expressions of hope, your faith and belief, and what we ought to do if we can, and Mr. Fowler's testimony that, having just returned from Europe, he believes that OEEC, which is a Government organization served by civil service, would like 100 percent, but it is not a definite statement-unless you wish to make it so, Mr. Fowler.

Mr. FOWLER. Well, Mr. Chairman

Senator O'MAHONEY. We cannot determine the demand that is to be upon the United States unless we know the amount of the goal. Mr. FOWLER. Well, I would say, Mr. Chairman, that every one of the 17 countries composing OEEC has expressed, through the delegates with whom I talked, that their meetings would have only one goal in mind, namely, to return as quickly as possible to a full supply of petroleum for all of their activities.

Mr. FLEMMING. Mr. Chairman, may I state what I consider to be our goal in this?

Senator O'MAHONEY. Yes.

Mr. FLEMMING. I mean, because I think properly so you emphasized that point.

I will state it this way: Our goal has been to make sure that our domestic supplies, I mean, whatever we needed in terms of our domestic economy, was available, and then to pool our transportation facilities in such a way as to move whatever we could over and above the needs of our domestic economy to Western Europe.

Now we have had a definite policy goal here in mind, and as I indicated last week and again this week, the estimate was that if we kept available what was needed by our domestic economy and then pooled our transportation facilities, we should be able to move about 500,000 barrels per day from the gulf coast to Western Europe. Now maybe as we get into this that estimate will prove to be a low estimate, but we are not going to push that figure up if it jeopardizes in any way, shape or manner our domestic supplies.

That is our goal: Don't jeopardize domestic supplies; pool your resources as far as transportation facilities are concerned; and get as much as those resources will make it possible for you to get to Western Europe.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Have you, in your suggestion to Secretary Seaton to call on MEEC for another plan, stated the goal to them, or suggested that Secretary Seaton state the goal?

Mr. FLEMMING. Mr. Chairman, as far as the first part of the goal, namely that we must not affect our domestic supplies, that goal has already been stated to him. It is in the plan of action. And all that we are asking for now is a specific program within this plan of action which will take the crude that is no longer needed because of the reduction of refinery runs, is no longer needed for Venezuela, because of the reduction of refinery runs, and move that crude into Western Europe.

Now what that will turn out to be in terms of barreles per day, we do not know. We will have to see what they come up with and have to evaluate.

Senator O'MAHONEY. No suggestion in terms of barrels a day— Mr. FLEMMING. Not at this point.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Has been made as yet in your recommendation?

Mr. FLEMMING. That is right. Because, Mr. Chairman, we have not yet got an accurate estimate of what the reduction in requirements will be because of the reduction in refinery runs. That still has to be determined.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Now, Mr. Fowler, I note that you have lumped under one heading all fuel oils. There are different grades of fuel oils, are there not?

Mr. FOWLER. Yes, sir, that is correct, Mr. Chairman.

Senator O'MAHONEY. And industry needs some very heavy fuel oils, does it not?

Mr. FOWLER. This fuel oil grouping here is largely heavy fuel which is used for industry, bunkers for vessels, and the heavier type of fuel throughout.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Is there any difference in demand and availbility of the different grades in fuel oil?

Mr. FOWLER. I would not say that there is a sufficient difference to be of importance.

Senator O'MAHONEY. In your conversations with OEEC and any others interested in this matter abroad, have you had any discussion about the diversion of Venezuelan oil?

Mr. FOWLER. No, sir, I did not.

Senator O'MAHONEY. OPEG furnished to OEEC its estimates of availability of oil from all sources, as I understand Mr. Moline's testimony.

Mr. FOWLER. That is correct.

Senator O'MAHONEY. And that includes the Western Hemisphere! Mr. FOWLER. Yes, sir.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Do you know whether OPEG has made any special estimate of the amount of fuel oil coming from South America and from the United States?

Mr. FOWLER. To Europe?

Senator O'MAHONEY. Yes.

Mr. FOWLER. Yes. They have in their availability figures the amount of fuel that is coming from the Western Hemisphere to the OEEC countries.

Senator O'MAHONEY. That is the whole. Do they break it down as between the United States and Venezuela?

Mr. FOWLER. Yes, sir, I believe they do.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Do you have those figures?

Mr. FOWLER. I do not have the breakdown with me, Mr. Chairman, but I will be happy to supply it to you.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Now it is very important, I think, for all of us who are at all interested in this matter to realize, first, that according to the reports which we get, the greatest need in Western Europe is for the heavy fuel oil which is used for heavy industry. That is the sort of fuel oil that would be needed for the production. of weapons for European armed forces, and that sort of thing.

Isn't it a fact that this is where the greatest lack lies, in the heavy fuel oil?

Mr. FOWLER. The greatest lack for the first quarter, Mr. Chairman, is in the distillate fuels which are used for transport, for agriculture, and activities of that type. There is a difference of 3 percent. The distillate is lower, and the heavy fuel oil is 3 percent higher.

Senator O'MAHONEY. I was trying to point out the difference between the heavy fuel oil and the light fuel oil.

Will you prepare some figures for us making that distinction? I do not want to spend the whole afternoon on this.

Mr. FOWLER. I do not know that I quite understand.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Break down this fuel oil into the various categories of fuel oil. You have lumped together under the heading "Fuel oil" normal demand 12,852,000 metric tons. That is by far the largest demand of any of the three categories. Only 79 percent of that is available.

Now if it be true, as we have been led to believe, that the greatest lag is in the heavy fuel, which is not set aside in this table, we may find that the percentage of the normal demand for heavy fuel is considerably less than 79 percent for the entire group of fuel oils. Do you see what I mean?

Mr. FOWLER. I understand, Mr. Chairman, and I will be happy to supply those figures for the record.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Yes. I do not expect you to do it offhand. You have a good mind and a lot of figures on the top of your mind, but I do not expect you to have the whole book there, sir.

Senator DIRKSEN. Mr. Chairman, I have 1 or 2 questions.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Of course.

Senator DIRKSEN. Mr. Fowler, I think in the table that Mr. Brown, general counsel for the Independent Petroleum Association, submitted the other day, it showed that in Germany about 9 percent of their energy was derived from the petroleum. So that meant that there were other competitive fuels. Now I presume that meant coal in a large degree, because of the rural area, and there may be some other sources of energy. What is the general capacity to convert your other sources of energy over there, if they do not have distillates or fuel oil? Mr. FOWLER. I would say, Mr. Senator, it is very limited, because in the postwar reconstruction of Europe's industry great stress was placed upon using fuel oil as a petroleum as a means of energy. And where before the war you may have had many supplied with coal who converted to oil and who could therefore convert back, in the postwar period I do not believe that exists to that extent.

Senator DIRKSEN. Now in the figures you have given us, does that include a reserve?

Mr. FOWLER. Normal demand, plus net availability.

Senator DIRKSEN. In their normal demand, I suppose they put in a cushion for reserve?

Mr. FOWLER. There is not a reserve as such. It would include a small amount to build stocks during seasons; in other words, during the summer season to build fuel stocks, and in the wintertime to build gasoline stocks.

Senator DIRKSEN. What kind of reserve did they have when this pinch began? Just generally.

Mr. FOWLER. Not too much. Normally throughout Europe prior to Suez they would have about a 14-day supply of crude oil for their refineries. Their auto gasoline and aviation gasoline might be a 30day supply, and I think overall, taking all products, you would probably find somewhere in the order of 25 to 30 days' supply.

Senator DIRKSEN. Some Middle East oil is still coming around the Horn by tanker; isn't it?

Mr. FOWLER. Oh, yes, sir.

Senator DIRKSEN. It gets to Europe?

Mr. FOWLER. Yes, sir.

Senator DIRKSEN. And that is included, of course, in the availabil ity?

Mr. FOWLER. That is correct.

Senator DIRKSEN. Now what is the likelihood that for February and March the shipments may be larger than those shown thus far? Mr. FOWLER. We, at the moment, do not anticipate any larger shipments unless additional supplies can be made available in the Western Hemisphere.

Senator DIRKSEN. Suppose we have a sustained dock strike, how is that going to affect this picture?

Mr. FOWLER. I do not think the dock strike would affect this picture at all, Mr. Senator.

Senator DIRKSEN. Not at all?

Mr. FOWLER. No, sir.

Senator DIRKSEN. Now one question to Mr. Flemming.

I do not have in mind the language of section 7. I remember when we discussed that matter on the floor, and I think I could quite agree with your contention that that was directed entirely to a normal situation in order to determine how we would best protect our own industry and our own security.

Let's assume that you had made that determination on the basis of this emergency. What position would any aggrieved party be in to come in and ask for a new hearing just as soon as the emergency was over?

Mr. FLEMMING. They would have a perfect right to do that, and you would have to go right back into the whole matter at that time. Senator DIRKSEN. Would you feel in all conscience that you would have to give them another hearing?

Mr. FLEMMING. Yes.

Senator DIRKSEN. When the emergency was over?

Mr. FLEMMING. No question about it.

Senator DIRKSEN. Then you would have to make a redetermination of this whole matter?

Mr. FLEMMING. That is right.

Senator DIRKSEN. So that if this situation does not last too long, then, I can go back to the point where you suspended action, and take up from there and carry out what you had expressed to the committee today.

Mr. FLEMMING. That is correct, sir.
Senator DIRKSEN. Thank you.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Senator Carroll.

Senator CARROLL. Mr. Fowler, following the line of questioning by Senator O'Mahoney, I wonder if you would add to your breakdown on the heavy fuel oil-you projected this, as I understand the estimate, as for the first quarter.