deal of money, as you know, like everybody else, to fix up to meet these requirements.

Mr. SMITH of Virginia. Well, as an independent you do not think Mr. Schulte's bill is gong to help you and save you, and so forth?

Mr. RAMEY. I don't see where it would. Under those conditions, now, if they are shipping in here under the same conditions as I am, why then I would say everybody in the United States has the same right. Let it come on.

Mr. SMITH of Virginia. But, Mr. Ramey, suppose they take all the surplus milk of the Chicago market, which of course is a large quantity, and ship it here through some large dairy concern that has branches everywhere and ship all that surplus milk into the Washington market overnight, what would happen to your milk?

Mr. RAMEY. It would break me up. It would break me up, all right.

Mr. SMITH of Virginia. In other words, you would be trying to sell 22-cent milk against 9-cent milk?

Mr. RAMEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SMITH of Virginia. And that would be because those shippers on that Chicago market are trying to get more than their fair share of the basic market of the country; isn't that true?

Mr. RAMEY. I think so; yes.

Mr. SMITH of Virginia. And the reverse of that would be true if you independents and the cooperatives in Washington undertook to take all your surplus milk and dump it on the Chicago market; is that right?

Mr. RAMEY. Yes. That's right.

Mr. SMITH of Virginia. So, taking the reverse of it, if you gathered all the surplus milk in Washington and shipped it to Mr. Schulte's district in Indiana it would ruin his farmers too, would it not?

Mr. RAMEY. Yes. It would paralyze his farmers.

Mr. SMITH or Virginia. And the only fellow to get the benefit of it would be the big monopolistic milk distributors?

Mr. RAMEY. That is right.

Mr. SMITH of Virginia. Because they would have cheap milk and would sell it at that same price?

Mr. RAMEY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been supplying the District with milk?

Mr. RAMEY. I am in my 33d year.

The CHAIRMAN. You have been in business 32 years?

Mr. RAMEY. I have been milking cows since I was 8 years old. The CHAIRMAN. You say on November 1 your base was reduced to 60 gallons?

Mr. RAMEY. Well, approximately; 1,862 gallons. If I ship over that it goes into surplus.

The CHAIRMAN. Was the price for the basic milk reduced at the same time?

Mr. RAMEY. Yes, sir. Also the surplus.

The CHAIRMAN. About 3 cents a gallon?

Mr. RAMEY. If I just thought and brought some papers from home, I could have shown it to you. My check went down about $100. And I own two farms. I operate two farms. In fact my wife owns

one, through my assistance. I raise heifers on that farm under this present set-up, and I cannot make it on a $450 check. If anybody can figure how I can pay my expense and operate these two farms on a $450 check on my present set-up-I would have to ship 1,100 gallons of milk to raise $100.

The CHAIRMAN. How many cows have you, about 40?

Mr. RAMEY. Well, I keep 32 milking cows. I have had around 65 to 70 head altogether. I am raising heifers to replace from that barn.

The CHAIRMAN. But you have 32 milking cows?

Mr. RAMEY. Yes, sir; 32 milking cows.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you think of the spread between the retail price and the price you get?

Mr. RAMEY. I think it is entirely too much, entirely too much. The way we figure it about runs between 8 and 9 cents. Further

more, I do not think the producers and the consumers are getting a square deal. There is something wrong somewhere. It is costing too much to distribute milk, according to my estimation.

The CHAIRMAN. You are only 14 miles from the District, aren't you?

Mr. RAMEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any retail milk business of your own to cities or towns there?

Mr. RAMEY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You just ship in bulk?

Mr. RAMEY. Ship in bulk. Now, we have a little different set-up right here in close to Washington than they do in parts of the country I have visited. Our help is very expensive here and very hard to get and if you get a good man you have to pay him awfully good wages to hold him. I happen to have two good ones. I pay them about as high wages as are paid in that country. It runs me, by the time I furnish a house and everything, not less than $80 a month; from that to $100.

The CHAIRMAN. You have been in the milk business you say for about 33 years?

Mr. RAMEY. Well, it would be, November 20, 1939, it will be 33 years.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you ever in the distributing end of it, the retailing end of it?

Mr. RAMEY. Why, yes; I have distributed retail.

The CHAIRMAN. How long ago was that?

Mr. RAMEY. I used to haul my milk in here and I picked up a right good little route and I routed considerable milk. And then, as time came on, I don't know, I couldn't meet the regulations in a way and

The CHAIRMAN. What regulations were those, Mr. Ramey?

Mr. RAMEY. Well, pasteurization came around, you know.
The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes; I see.

Mr. RAMEY. That's been 20 years ago. But I sold it at ten cents a quart and my check increased like everything, of course, by coming in myself every morning. I put it out, that is, 10 quarts and a dozen quarts in a place.

The CHAIRMAN. That was raw milk?
Mr. RAMEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SMITH of Virginia. Raw milk?

Mr. RAMEY. Yes, sir. Raw milk.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any questions, Judge?

Mr. SMITH of Virginia. Did you bottle it?

Mr. RAMEY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Then when the pasteurization laws came through, you discontinued that?

Mr. RAMEY. Yes. You know, things came to be renewed and I stopped hauling my milk. And that is all of the retail business.

Mr. SMITH of Virginia. Just to make it perfectly clear with reference to this particular bill to the committee, you take the same position as the Association, that it would be harmful to the small farmer? The CHAIRMAN. I believe he made that general statement.

Mr. RAMEY. Yes, that is my opinion. If I had to make changes I believe I would lose money, undoubtedly.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, we will have to adjourn the hearing. I will have to get in touch with Mr. Schulte and find out when he will reconvene.

(Whereupon, at 12 noon, the hearing was adjourned.)

AFTER RECESS

The committee met at 2:30 p. m., Hon. Dr. Rudolph G. Tenerowicz (acting chairman) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order for the further consideration of H. R. 6316.

STATEMENT OF A. H. DERR, FREDERICK COUNTY, MD.

The CHAIRMAN. Your address?

Mr. DERR. Frederick County, Md.

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed.

Mr. DERR. Did you have any question you want to ask me? I happen to be a milk producer. My basic is about 56 gallons per day and I am shipping between 60 and 70. My net price at the receiving plant is 25 cents per gallon.

Now, I have read this bill here, on page 2 and page 3. My son and I happen to be operating two farms. He is on one. One is a rented farm. I happen to be on the rented farm. Our health requirements entail quite an investment and the dairy farm which we produce milk on for this market. In the farm I am on I have been in the beef cattle business. I have a bank barn, which is not recognized by the health department. It has 40 stands. If I interpret this bill right, the only thing required here is tuberculosis tested cattle. And I certainly think it would be unfair to a dairy farmer with the investments that have been made if I could put in a bunch of cattle with this TB test and me shipping against an improved dairy farm. And I further think if that would be permitted that there would be so much milk in this market that it certainly would lower the price very substantially. That is my own personal conviction. I think that is what we would find if this bill were passed to permit a man to deliver milk in the District just so he has his

cattle TB tested. And I would certainly oppose this bill very strenuously from that standpoint.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you wish to ask any questions?

Mr. BLETCH. Well, I am not an attorney but there was just one question, if you don't mind. I am an employee of the association. I would like to ask Mr. Derr what effect he would think having this requirement which he mentioned on the quality of the milk or the bacteria count of the milk you would produce?

Mr. DERR. I think it would be very harmful to the grade of milk that would be produced for this market because it certainly is not reasonable that a man can go into any kind of building without any equipment and produce sanitary milk under those conditions, the same as he can in a well-equipped dairy farm.

Mr. BLETCH. Do you recall what your bacteria count is on the farm that you are shipping milk to Washington from?

Mr. DERR. I just can't tell you exactly. But I can tell you this, the farm is on the honor roll. But I just don't know the exact amount of the bacteria count.

Mr. BLETCH. For the record "on the honor roll" means below 5,000. The CHAIRMAN. Where do you get your information?

Mr. DERR. From self-experience. That is, you mean from the dairy

end of it?

The CHAIRMAN. No. I am speaking of the bacteria count. Where do you get your information?

Mr. DERR. The bacteria count is taken by the association at the receiving plant.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the Board of Health send you a report on the count?

Mr. DERR. That is sent to the association. Is that right, Mr. Bletch?

The CHAIRMAN. Then do I understand that the association gives you reports for the bacteria count of the milk and the cream brought into the plant?

Mr. DERR. I might say on the bacteria count, if you get high why they notify you. But as long as you are on the honor roll, or below their standard, why, I have not been hearing anything from them.

The CHAIRMAN. Being a physician I am very much interested in that phase, as to where you get your report and from whom.

Mr. DERR. Well, the bacteria count, as I say, is taken at the receiving plant and checked in their laboratories.

The CHAIRMAN. I mean how do you know this count is what they say it is?

Mr. DERR. Well, you can get the list. Look on the honor roll. My name is on that. It is published and my farm is on that roll.

The CHAIRMAN. And that list shows the bacteria count in your milk or cream?

Mr. DERR. Yes, sir. And if you get above their standard for bacteria count why they soon notify you of that too.

The CHAIRMAN. You will be notified by the Board of Health?

Mr. DERR. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any other question?

Mr. BLETCH. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Mr. DERR. You are welcome, sir.

STATEMENT OF W. B. MOBLEY, DERWOOD, MD.

The CHAIRMAN. State your name and address, Mr. Mobley. Mr. MOBLEY. Basil Mobley, Derwood, Md., Montgomery County, Md.

The CHAIRMAN. You are a dairy farmer?

Mr. MOBLEY. Yes, sir. I am a dairy farmer of Montgomery County.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your base?

Mr. MOBLEY. Exactly? You want the exact base? I believe I can find it here; 100 percent base, 54,676 pounds.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you receive for your milk?

Mr. MOBLEY. I receive for my milk in the month of April-it was $3.19 a hundred weight. That is about 272 cents a gallon. The average for the winter months was 26.97 cents per gallon through the winter months. And, if I am not going ahead too fast, during the months of October, November, December, January, and February, and March, the cost was 26.738 cents to produce that milk that I am getting 26.97 cents for.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you wish to make a statement?

Mr. MOBLEY. Are you a doctor?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I am a doctor.

Mr. MOBLEY. Well, I just wanted to know. Are you a Congressman?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MOBLEY. What State are you from?

The CHAIRMAN. Michigan.

Mr. MOBLEY. Are you a medical doctor?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; a doctor of medicine.

Mr. MOBLEY. I just wanted to get an idea of whom I was talking to. Doctor, this bill, as I take it, seems to have been drawn up by legal procedure, and the Health Department of the District of Columbia has not been consulted in any way before drawing it up. Now, as you know, as a doctor, this question of health is a very important one to enter into a bill of this kind. That is, you should consult the health officers and especially those of the District of Columbia before drawing up this bill because the Health Department of the District of Columbia has charge of the health of the people of Washington and they know how to place their fingers on the different sources of supply in order to keep up the health standards. It does not meet with my approval that a bill of this kind should be drawn up without, it would seem to me, without proper consulting and working with the Health Department on that subject. As I take this bill, the last part of it especially seems to come from material that has developed in the investigation.

What is your idea of that? Don't you think the health officers should have something to say?

The CHAIRMAN. As chairman of this committee I want to know what your idea is so that I can report back to the committee.

Mr. MOBLEY. All right. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You spoke of the health features. What do you know about the health features of milk?

Mr. MOBLEY. Oh, not a great deal, sir. I was just watching the way it was drawn up and it looks to me like, in view of the fact the