Mr. GREGG. That depends on how much surplus I am shipping. At the present time we are shipping, last month we shipped very little surplus. Our prices-you mean the net price to me after haulage? The CHAIRMAN. The net price after haulage and brokerage is deducted.

Mr. GREGG. Around 24 or 25 cents. If I increase my surplus that amount is decreased.

The CHAIRMAN. You have a herd of how many cows?

Mr. GREGG. Between 30 and 35.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your observation as to the spread between what you get-you are getting about 6 cents a quart for yourselfwhat is your observation as to the spread between the price you get and the retail price of 14 cents?

Mr. GREGG. On that question I am not prepared to give anything definite, and it seems right large. But it is dangerous talk unless you know what you are talking about.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you have no fixed convictions except just a general impression that the spread seems large? Mr. GREGG. That's right.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. Have you anything else you want to say, any other comments, except to express general opposition to the bill? Mr. GREGG. Well, my attitude is this: That the people of Washington, at the present time, are getting a high grade of milk with a comparatively low bacteria count. There is plenty of milk in the adjacent milkshed in Washington to supply all the milk that the people need. I cannot see how a change in this law as proposed in this bill would benefit anybody. If the western shipper were to ship in here he would find the market was not the same. The price would not be the same when he got here as it is now, because the shippers in this territory are not going to relinquish their market. The only person that would be benefited would be, possibly in the price range, to the consumer, and he would suffer because he would not get as high grade a product as he is getting at the present time. And it would not be a uniform product.

And there is another thing I want to bring out. The milk that would get in from the West would be inspected by inspectors who are not going to use that milk. At the present time the District of Columbia Health Department inspects my premises, and that milk is to be used by the city whose health department inspects it. And that naturally makes more thorough the inspection. I feel very strongly that our present set-up of inspection and high-grade equipment and thorough care is essential to the making of high-grade milk, and I do not believe it is possible to have a poor inspection and not as frequent inspection and produce milk of a good quality. I think Dr. Ashworth brought out in the testimony at the other hearing since this bootleg proposition was started and inspections have been less frequent because he had been forced to keep his inspectors in the plants, there was a poor grade of milk being shipped because of that. The farmers have spent money in preparing for this thing to ship high-grade milk. We are equipped to do it. There is plenty of milk here, and I cannot see that it would benefit anyone to have these regulations lowered.

The CHAIRMAN. At 6 cents a quart do you consider the dairy business profitable?

Mr. GREGG. I do not think the farmer can produce it for any less. It is very doubtful if he is making expenses at that.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this your sole business, or do you have some

other business?

Mr. GREGG. That is practicaly my sole business.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not a farmer in addition to that?
Mr. GREGG. No.

There is one thing I think should be mentioned. Dairy farming is a highly specialized business. We do not keep a few cattle and a few land sheep and that sort of thing. We center all our attention on farming, and whenever you make regulations that break down the dairy proposition, why, you are breaking the income, the entire income of the farmer.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a local output? Are you in the retail business?

Mr. GREGG. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You ship it all?

Mr. GREGG. We occasionally have a few people come in and maybe get a gallon of milk. But we have no retail business.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Gregg.

STATEMENT OF GILES H. MILLER, JR., CULPEPER, VA.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you give your name and address to the reporter?

Mr. MILLER. Giles H. Miller, Jr., Culpeper, Va.

The CHAIRMAN. How far is that from the District of Columbia? Mr. MILLER. About 67 miles.

The CHAIRMAN. How much milk do you produce?

Mr. MILLER. None, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. None?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You are here in what capacity?

Mr. MILLER. Well, I happen to be the cashier of the bank there, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I see. What bank is that?

Mr. MILLER. The Culpeper National Bank.

The CHAIRMAN. You are here in opposition to this bill?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Miller, suppose you go ahead.

Mr. MILLER. As I understand, sir, the bill will at the present time allow cream to be shipped into the District and perhaps possibly milk that is not to be inspected according to the requirements as now in effect of the District of Columbia Health Department. The CHAIRMAN. By the way, have you read the bill?

Mr. MILLER. I have read a synopsis of it, sir. I just this minute got in.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you a copy of it?

Mr. MILLER. I have not. But I think I know what it provides. In my position as cashier of the bank we have principally a dairy section, a section that has been built up around the dairy. It means its principal source of income is from the dairies through that particular

section. It is my feeling, sir, that these men who have been in that work for some time have been constantly called upon because of the regulations to expend quite large sums of money for them in order to meet these requirements and to keep them shipping milk into the District. They feel that the requirements are sound. They feel that the requirements-I mean they understand why they are. At the same time it has been necessary for them to expend quite a little money to meet those requirements in many cases. In one, just recently, we loaned a man $8,000 to repair or practically build a new barn because the score that he received on his old barn endangered his shipping, continuing to ship into the District.

Should this bill pass it would seem to me that it would allow products to come into the District, of course, in competition with these people who have made a specialty at that dairy business and who have expended these sums of money. At the same time it would allow products to come in that are not of the quality of the products that are now being received into the District. And it seems to the people of my section that while these requirements are rather stringent and rather strict, that they realize the necessity for them. I think that may be shown by the fact there are two dairies supplying our particular town, both of whom have practically adopted the same requirements, because they realize it is for the good of the consumer consuming these products.

The CHAIRMAN. About how many dairymen who supply the Washington district are customers of your bank, roughly?

Mr. MILLER. I would say perhaps 40.

The CHAIRMAN. Forty?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Some of them are men who are comparatively small operators?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And what do you say as to the general condition of their business? Of course, I do not want you to divulge anything confidential, but you can make a general statement.

Mr. MILLER. I would say this, sir: In practically two-thirds of the cases, that these dairymen are still in debt considerably, due to improving their facilities for shipping milk brought about by the increased requirements in order to ship milk into the District. I would say they felt that as long as things were going to go as they were they felt justified in making that substantial investment, and, as I say, they realize the fairness of it because they, too, have children and they realize the dangers that can accrue from a dairy not properly handled and supervised.

The CHAIRMAN. Do any of these men come to you looking for loans because they are going to join this association? Has that happened recently, or would you say that the association seems to be more or less of a closed corporation?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir. We have had one or two, I think three, that have gone into the association and built barns recently.

The CHAIRMAN. How recently would you say?

Mr. MILLER. One of them, within the year, I happen to know particularly. The other one, I think this one man has been shipping perhaps 6 months now. And we have others that come in. But the

thing that stands in their way is not the ability to get in but the ability to raise the finances to provide the equipment.

The CHAIRMAN. Livestock and facilities?

Mr. MILLER. Livestock, and the barn.

The CHAIRMAN. But you have not had an opportunity to read the bill, only you have just gathered the general features of it from conversation with some persons who have studied it?

Mr. MILLER. I was particularly interested and I have read, I have been following these hearings as far as the press is concerned and I have had explained, I have asked for and gotten just what this particular bill proposes and why, and I thought, what I base my particular objection is because as I see it, sir, it is twofold. It will disrupt materially a section of the country that has built itself up for the past 18 or 20 years as a specialized dairy country. Those men have not made a great deal of money. A good many of them have barely existed due to a number of situations which I could explain. Now, they have this investment and I feel that should those requirements be lowered and this market thrown open to those who have not made this substantial investment or any particular preparation over a period of years that it will materially affect these men who have tried to cooperate to provide the District with the class of milk that is healthful and proper for the District.

Secondly, I feel that from their standpoint that to lower the quality after having gotten it up there, it seems to me it is almost beyond question, if you can increase the quality of milk, the highest quality is not too high for any of us to consume.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, Mr. Miller, say if a young man came to you with limited capital and he was going, we will say for the sake of the argument, to rent a farm and he wanted to go into the dairy business you would not be disposed to encourage him a great deal would you?

Mr. MILLER. Not at the moment. Not a rented farm, particularly. The CHAIRMAN. Not at the moment?

Mr. MILLER. Because he would have to spend too much money on the other man's place in order to get in and when he gave up that farm, I might say, if it happened to be my farm and a young man wanted to rent it and he would go ahead and make these improvements that necessarily that would be quite advantageous to me but it would be quite detrimental to him.

The CHAIRMAN. The point I was trying to bring out was that if you do not have fairly good equity you would not be particularly anxious to talk to him about the proposition?

Mr. MILLER. Well, it depends a lot on the man.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, I know that. But I mean to say as a general proposition in the dairy business you would not advise anyone to go into it unless they had some substantial backing. According to the attitude of some of these men apparently they are not getting enough to really make a good living.

Mr. MILLER. That is correct, sir. And it would be very difficult for them to go from scratch because they would have too large an investment there and could not possibly immediately make any return on that investment.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Miller; have you any additional comment you want to make?

Mr. MILLER. I believe, sir, that is all, unless there are other questions along that line from the standpoint of dairymen.

The CHAIRMAN. From the standpoint of dairymen and the public health?

Mr. MILLER. From the standpoint of the dairymen and the public health. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you very much.

STATEMENT OF OTTO W. ANDERSON, ATHENS, GAITHERSBURG, MONTGOMERY COUNTY, MD.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you give your name to the stenographer? Mr. ANDERSON. Otto W. Anderson, Athens, Gaithersburg, Montgomery County, Md.

The CHAIRMAN. You are a dairyman, Mr. Anderson?

Mr. ANDERSON. Dairy and county agricultural agent.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you ship milk into the District of Columbia?
Mr. ANDERSON. Yes; I ship milk into the District of Columbia.
The CHAIRMAN. About how many quarts of milk do you ship?
Mr. ANDERSON. Quarts?

The CHAIRMAN. About how many gallons of milk, rather.
Mr. ANDERSON. I ship between 130 and 140 gallons of milk.
The CHAIRMAN. How much of that quantity is base milk?
Mr. ANDERSON. One hundred and eighteen gallons.

The CHAIRMAN. And after deducting haulage and brokerage just about what do you net a gallon?

Mr. ANDERSON. 22 to 2212 cents, depending on the amount of surplus I have shipped.

The CHAIRMAN. What are your comments on this bill, Mr. Anderson?

Mr. ANDERSON. After reading the bill, it seems that about the only provisions to safeguard the public health of the city are those relating to a general examination of cows, the tuberculosis test, 50-degrees. Fahrenheit, and 50,000 bacteria. It would be allowed in should it pass certification by a milk commission or any State board of health. That naturally brings up the problem of inspection and the ability of the various State boards to handle the situation in a way that would protect the consumers of this city. Speaking only from the standpoint of Maryland and Montgomery County, where I live, we found on our own milk suply, the county milk supply, that the State inspection was too infrequent and too lax and not sufficiently followed up to protect the consumers against any of these things, regardless of the regulations.

I have known milk to be retailed in the town of Rockville, in fact,. sold over drug-store counters for years, without a TB test. It was required, but there was not sufficient follow-up to see that it was: carried out.

We then set up our own regulations under, I mean, following very closely the Public Health Service Code, the United States Public Health Service Code. And we worked on those regulations in modification, and first starting with one inspector and later adding another, for a period of 6 years. And it is admitted by the health department of that county that we yet do not have a satisfactory milk: