You see, Mr. Rodino, under our agreement, the trust agreement, we are trustees of this territory. We do not own it. We are a trustee under the United Nations for this really large area. Under that trusteeship, we are supposed to promote the economic, social, and educational programs in those areas. We believe in accomplishing this these people should have freer access to continental United States so they can see what Americans are sort of all about. At the present time their only contact with Americans is either in Guam, or the central parts of this district. This would be at Truk, at Majero, at Kwajalein. Otherwise, there is almost no contact with Americans. They have had considerable contact with the Japanese, from 1914 until the middle forties when Japan gave up. The Japanese went all through these territories. The Americans have not done that.

We think it is proper these people should have access to the continental United States to find out what the United States is all about. Mr. RODINO. I understand that, but I think your statement, and the import of your bill, is very clear that with this access the residence period here would go toward the residence requirement for naturalization.

Mr. WESTLAND. That is right.

Mr. RODINO. Do you not believe we are sort of holding out a magnet to these people, to the better element, to those who are qualified, to come into the United States and remain here instead of going back and helping in development of the trust territory?

Mr. WESTLAND. Your proposition, Mr. Rodino, is interesting, and it is pretty difficult to say what might happen. If you could go out there and go to some of these very small islands, and believe me the necessities of life is their way of living-food, shelter, and clothing and that is it you would recognize the inaccessibility of the United States to those people. It would be almost impossible for them to come to the United States. They could make it, perhaps a few, but I believe if their leaders from the central district area were permitted to come to the United States and to find out how we do some things, perhaps acquire some knowledge as to a better way of life for them-and this is a philosophical discussion, believe me but the belief of the administration is that if these people could come to the United States and learn how to go back and have a better way of life, then we are accomplishing what we are supposed to do under the trusteeship agreement.

I would agree if the leaders were to come to the United States and become citizens and stay here, then this would not work. I quite agree with that. I doubt very much if that would happen.

Mr. FEIGHAN. Mr. Westland, for each person who would leave the trust territory to come to the United States, it would be a requisite. they receive an exit permit from the trust territory administration? Mr. WESTLAND. That is correct.

Mr. FEIGHAN. To that extent there would be some degree of control as to those who might come to the United States and stay here and not return for the benefit of the trust territory?

Mr. WESTLAND. There is no requirement in the legislation they

return.

Mr. FEIGHAN. I know.

Mr. WESTLAND. The only requirement for this visa to the United States, let's say, is that this person be a native-born citizen of the Pacific island and, as the bill says, "present a valid identity certificate."

The high commissioner of the trust territory shall issue that permit or that visa.

Mr. RODINO. I have no further questions. Thank you.

Mr. BESTERMAN. Mr. Westland, we have the Department of State's report on visa issuance throughout the world.

It indicates that a total of 1,728 nonimmigrant visas-that includes students and visitors were issued in the trust territory in 1 year, last fiscal year. This is about the annual average for the last 5 or 6 years. Since the population of the islands is 88,000, that represents 2 percent of the total population who have gained access to the United States in 1 single year.

Mr. WESTLAND. May I interrupt there and ask you a question? Were those visas to the continental United States?

Mr. BESTERMAN. Some of them could have included visas to Guam or Hawaii.

Mr. WESTLAND. There are some student programs for these youngsters in the trust territories. I have visited them in Hawaii where perhaps we have 50 or maybe 100 youngsters going to college at the University of Hawaii. I am wondering how many of those actually came to the continental United States rather than say Guam or perhaps Hawaii.

Mr. BESTERMAN. I submit that 2 percent of the entire population of an area obtaining access to the United States in 1 single fiscal year represents a rather large proportion. If you would consider a European country, say of 40 million people, which is close to the population of Italy, for instance, 2 percent of that would be 800,000 Italian students and visitors entering the United States in 1 year. This would be a rather large number certainly not indicating any particular impediments to entering.

As to the impediments, I have the Department of State's bulletin of August 5. 1963, containing the report submitted to the United Nations by the Governor of the trust territory. I would like to quote from this report.

Two significant events of general social and political import occurred this past year. On August 2, 1962, the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service announced that visas for entry to the United States on the part of trust territory citizens no longer would be required when a citizen was proceeding in direct and continuous transit from the trust territory to the United States. All that a trust territory citizen now needs to enter the United States as a nonimmigrant is sufficient official identification. Certain minor regulations such as securance of official acceptance by a school, however, still are in effect for trust territory residents who are applying for entrance as students.

Are we entitled to conclude from the figures of the Department, and from the Governor's report, that there are actually no significant impediments as far as entry of natives of the trust territory into the United States is concerned?

Mr. WESTLAND. Let me answer a couple of questions you brought up. First of all, you tried to draw a comparison between Italy and the trust territories, which I think fails because the United States is in no way in a trustee status with the nation of Italy. We have no obligation whatsoever to Italy. Nevertheless, under the trusteeship agreement with the United Nations, we do have a very definite responsibility with the Trust Territories of the Pacific. It is an agreement which we have signed. We have nothing like that with Italy, or with any other major nation that I know of. So I think that part of the argument fails.

It is true that trust territory citizens can move to the United States. This legislation will permit them to count as part of their residence in the United States for naturalization purposes the time they spend in the United States, which they cannot do now.

Mr. BESTERMAN. When I brought in the comparison with Italy, all I was trying to do was to illustrate the proportionate size of the entries. I stressed that 2 percent of the population had access to another country in 1 year. Now, I take it then that the principal feature of your bill is its naturalization aspect.

Mr. WESTLAND. That is correct.

Mr. FEIGHAN. I might add, Mr. Besterman, if you follow your comparison to its ultimate conclusion, you would have to include therein every visitor from Italy. Was that included in your comparison?

Mr. BESTERMAN. Yes, sir; every nonimmigrant.

Mr. FEIGHAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Westland.

Mr. WESTLAND. Thank you.

Mr. FEIGHAN. We will next hear from our able colleague from the State of Hawaii, Mr. Gill.

[Mr. Gill's bill, H.R. 7561, is identical with H.R. 7669.]

STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS P. GILL, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF HAWAII

Mr. GILL. As a matter of pedigree, before I start on my statement, I wish to make it very clear that I do not profess to be an expert on the trust territories or the Pacific islands, but merely to point out that I was born in the Pacific and have spent most of my life there, not only in Hawaii, but throughout the rest of the area. I was fortunate enough in January of this year to spend a couple of weeks going through the area at issue here today.

I think I have some modest knowledge of the general problems of the area, and perhaps a few impressions that might be of use to the committee.

This bill was introduced after a similar provision was eliminated from H.R. 3198. That bill was an omnibus bill relating to the trust territory which was considered, amended, and passed by the House Interior Committe, of which I am a member.

The chairman well remembers we had a discussion last year about whether section 3 should stay in 3198. It was on the very generous offer of the chairman of the full committee and yourself to hold hearings and consider the measure separately that we introduced it as a separate bill and put it under the jurisdiction of this committee. While H.R. 7561 and similar measures relate to immigration of citizens of the trust territory, their implications are far broader. The Trust Territory of the Pacific, an area equivalent in size to the United States but containing only a tiny fraction of the land area, has been under our jurisdiction since World War II. In earlier years, these islands were kept relatively closed to outside contact and, as a result of this and other policies, there was relatively little advancement or development in most parts of the territory.

In 1962, the Congress passed Public Law 87-541, increasing the authorization from $7.5 to $17.5 million for the trust territory. Since that time, the trust territory administration has moved rapidly to

upgrade the educational system, the fiscal facilities, transportation, and other areas were minimal attention had been paid in the past. We have just begun to adequately meet our responsibilities in this

area.

I submit this bill is another needed link in the chain of progress for these areas.

Now, a number of arguments have been advanced against this and similar measures. Let me treat with some of them.

In the first place, it has been argued that to allow free migration to the United States would strip the islands of their talented young people and thus handicap us in our efforts to move this area into the 20th century. True, a number of people would leave the islands, but on balance they would gain. It would be better to lose some in order to gain back others who have been able to come to this country for an education and training they could not get at home. Even those who left their islands and took up permanent residence in this country would be an invaluable asset to us.

What closer ties could there be between the people of these various islands and our country than to have a son in Guam, or a sister in Honolulu, or an aunt in Los Angeles? Some of the areas would also gain because outmigration would solve an ever-growing population problem which modern sanitation and the growth of a cash economy is bound to accentuate.

Let me dwell further on two of those points.

This same argument about outmigration stripping the islands of their high-caliber intellectual leaders can apply to my State, and it is something we have worred about for many years. I do not think it has hurt us a bit. We have lost many tens of thousands of Hawaiian citizens to the mainland of the United States. We have gained back many tens of thousands from the mainland of the United States. This exchange goes on at about the rate of 10,000 per year and has continued during the last 5, 6, or 10 years. This is an interchange of people. The same type of thing would not occur in the trust territory immediately, but I think eventually there would be some of it, and there is some of this type of interchange now.

The ties that my islands have to the west coast are extremely personal. We have a very high percentage of our people who live in the bay area, who live in San Diego and Los Angeles, who live in Seattle, who live across the country to the east coast, and these people write letters home. They come and visit their relatives. Their relatives come and visit them. If this current season is any indication, half of Hawaii must be in Washington this week. This interchange ties our State and the rest of the Nation together.

Of course, we are speaking of a very relatively sophisticated society in Hawaii which is very closely linked and comparable to all parts of the mainland. This same comparison is not exact for the trust territory, but it is reasonably close.

I think you will find where you get this interchange, you have close ties. Why do we want the ties? I do not think I am talking out of school. We all recognize this vast area of the Pacific is of tremendous strategic value to the United States. These are areas that were taken during the Second World War at great cost to us and have been occupied by us ever since under this trusteeship agreement.

Sooner or later, just when we do not know, there is likely to come a time when there will be international pressure for a plebiscite of some sort. It is my guess at the present time, if they held a plebiscite, we would win. I suspect this would be the case no matter when they hold it, but it will be more certainly the case if the individual people who live in the trust territory feel a very close identity with us.

I think the bill we are discussing here would allow this to grow. Now, the last point I make here that but outmigration would help relieve the population pressure, is something I think we have to face. Not all portions of the trust territory are as heavily populated as others, but some are very densely populated, indeed.

For instance, the Marianas, which include Saipan, Rota, and Tinian is of the same general ethnic and cultural background as Guam, there is a fair amount of land area relatively unused. The reason for this is, that the Marianas was heavily populated by the Japanese during their term of mandate. After the war, when these places were occupied by the United States, the Japanese were repatriated to the mainland. That left a tremendous population gap, so we have spare land in those areas.

In the Western Carolines centering around the little town of Korot, there is also a fair amount of land area not being used to its full

extent.

As you move east across the Pacific, for example, to the atoll of Truk, you will find tremendous pressure and a tremendous growth of population on an extremely limited land area. I talked to one of our administrative officers down there during our last trip, discussing the property right problem in this area. As you know, they have the old Pacific island, or Polynesian system of communal ownership. A family has a right to a certain area, and every member of that family has a form of undivided right to that area, but they have to designate certain portions of it as being the portion from which an individual can draw some sustenance.

He told me it has gotten so bad in some parts of this atoll that a member of a family could only lay personal claim to one branch on a breadfruit tree-not a land area, not a breadfruit tree, but one branch on the breadfruit tree. This is cutting it pretty fine. This indicates that the pressure of population is getting quite tense in this area.

When you bring in American sanitation, which we are doing, and your infant mortality drops off, as it is, your population pressure is going to grow tremendously.

Now, perhaps these people can be moved, and some have been, to say the Western Carolines, or perhaps to the Marianas, but this is not always too practical. There is someone else on those islands already and they often have a different cultural background.

If you go back 100 years or so, you will find a background of warfare between some of these groups. They are not on the most friendly terms culturally. So movement within the trust territory is not the full answer.

I think what we are saying here is eventually-and this is a matter of our generation-some very modest safety valves should be made available to these people. If they want to move to Hawaii, fine; if they want to move to Guam, fine; if some want to try the mainland of the United States, fine. It will be a very small fraction as far as