Senator BRIDGES. It is a point that we have to at least consider. What check would the various secretaries-not the super-Secretary but the other secretaries have if the super-Secretary made a recommendation to the Congress that was contrary to their belief?

Let us take, for example, the Secretary of the Navy and the head of naval aviation. Let us say there was a recommendation made by the super-Secretary; a recommendation, let us say, concerning the Secretary of the Navy and the head of the Marine Corps. What recourse would he have under this bill?

Secretary PATTERSON. He has the right of access to the President to present his views to the President if he thinks that the importance of some function under his administration is not appreciated by the Secretary of National Defense.

Senator BRIDGES. Now, Mr. Secretary, as a very practical matter, how long do you think that Secretary of the Navy, or the head of the Marine Corps, or the head of naval aviation would last if he proceeded to go over the head of the super Secretary to the President of the United States?

Secretary PATTERSON. I think it would depend upon whether he had a sound case or not. If he frequently went up with matters that might strike the President as trivial, or unsound, I do not suppose it would have a very good effect on his future. But isn't that true today?

Senator BRIDGES. Would it not be intensified in this bill? Immediately he would be accused of undermining the super-Secretary, would he not?

Secretary PATTERSON. Oh, I do not think so; not if the men had any real gage about them. You mean he might be viewed as a nuisance? Senator BRIDGES. Secretary Forrestal and you have both been going on the assumption that you will have a very high type of man, generous in impulses and lofty in ideals, in this office. But you are dealing with the frailties of human nature as well, and from the practical point of view, if you have a super-Secretary of Defense, and he lays down a policy, and your Secretary of the Navy or Secretary of War or Secretary of Air, or the head of the Air Force, or the head of naval aviation should then go to the President of the United States over the head of the Secretary of National Defense, and it should be upon a very vital subject, or a series of subjects, then what, as a practical matter, would be the result? Immediately, in my judgment, at least, he would be accused of undermining the super-Secretary and going over his head. And I would not give a great deal for the chances of the Secretary of the Navy or the Secretary of War, or whoever it might be who would go to the President; I would not expect his career to be a lasting one.

I make this exception: If you had a peculiarly idealistic man as the super-Secretary, it might make a difference.

Secretary PATTERSON. I do not think there is any serious risk along that line.

Senator BRIDGES. Well, the powers of this super-Secretary, as I have indicated here, are tremendous.

All you have to do is read the bill, and there just grows upon you a sense of the tremendous power of this one man. And as for this appeal directly to the President, which has been emphasized by Sec

retary Forrestal and by you, while I am delighted that it has been written into the bill, I do not think that, from the standpoint of a show-down, from the practical standpoint, it would have too great significance. Because I think when a man does that, whether on a very serious matter or on several trivial matters which are nevertheless important to his department, it is my belief that he will not last very long.

Secretary PATTERSON. Oh, the Secretary of National Defense is given broad powers under the act; I agree with that. I think he needs to have broad powers. It is something like the creation of the Federal Union, where the Government, the Central Government, has to have adequate powers.

This provision that we have been referring to, I suppose is like the tenth amendment:

All powers not delegated by this Constitution to the Federal Government nor prohibited by it to the States are hereby reserved to the States or to the people.

Senator BRIDGES. Mr. Secretary, let us suppose we had a President of the United States who said to these various secretaries, the Secretary of the Navy, the Secretary of Air, the Secretary of War: "Now, it is your job to back up the super-Secretary."

What position would they be in then? Would they not be in a very difficult position? Would not the Nation be in a terrifically risky position?

Secretary PATTERSON. I do not think you can assume anything that would operate to the prejudice of any one of the three branches. And by that I mean without due regard to its importance in national defense.

Senator BRIDGES. Mr. Secretary, suppose this super-Secretary should become sick or incapacitated. What would happen then? Who would be the super-Secretary then

Secretary PATTERSON. The super-Secretary?

Senator BRIDGES. Or perform his functions?

Secretary PATTERSON. I do not know whether there is any provision in the act about that or not. If there is not, it would be the senior of the three. It would be the senior of the three Secretaries who would act in his absence.

Senator BRIDGES. Would that be in the law?

Secretary PATTERSON. Of course, the President can appoint anybody to be the Acting Secretary, but I would say it would be the senior of the three.

Senator BRIDGES. But I mean, is it specified in the law?

Secretary PATTERSON. I would say it is not specified in the law. I may be wrong about that. If there is an assistant Secretary provided for, maybe he would be the man.

No; there is no general assistance to him.

Senator BRIDGES. I think there should be some provision spelled out in the law, as to who is going to take his place. Because he is a pretty important gentleman when you come to read section 102 of the act.

Now, let us take the situation today. You and Secretary Forrestal have come here and testified for this bill. The President is supporting it. He is Commander in Chief. There are a lot of people who spent their lifetime in the Army, Navy, and Air Force. Are they

free to come up here and tell us their honest judgment, or have not the orders gone all down the line to get behind this bill?

Secretary PATTERSON. No. It is the policy of the War Department to support the bill; there is no question about that. But no gag has been put on anybody.

Senator BRIDGES. You do not think that a general or anyone else who values his career would be very rueful in future years if he should come up here and buck you on the policy of the War Department on this, Mr. Secretary?

Secretary PATTERSON. I do not think his future would be prejudiced by that.

Senator BRIDGES. There again, you are an idealist, Mr. Secretary, and perhaps with you or Secretary Forrestal heading this up, the situation would be different than that which I anticipate.

Secretary PATTERSON. As for all of these matters of assignment and promotion, and things like that, I would be a fool to interfere with those. Those are up to the Chief of Staff. Those are military

matters.

3

Senator BRIDGES. But getting back to my question, Mr. Secretary. If a particular man in active service who had spent 30 years in the Army or the Navy, were opposed to this today, and he holds a responsible position down there, even though there is no gag rule, it would mean that his chances for a future in the Army or Navy would be negative if he should come up here and buck the policy of the War or Navy Department, or the President on this bill.

Secretary PATTERSON. I do not think so.

Senator BRIDGES. You think he would flourish just as well in future years?

Secretary PATTERSON. His future depends upon his general useful

ness.

Senator BRIDGES. Well, there again, I hope you are right.

Secretary PATTERSON. If he had been a steady nuisance all along, then maybe not.

Senator BRIDGES. Now, Mr. Secretary, instead of giving these broad powers to the super-Secretary, here, why were not the specific powers written into the bill? In other words, I am getting down to the point now that our Government is supposed to be one of laws and not of

men.

Secretary Forrestal continually emphasized the ideal men, the of high character, and urged that a man chosen for this post would be the ideal man. But after all, considering the frailty of human nature, and the nature of the times we are going through today, you cannot depend upon such a proposition.

And specifically why, in this bill, were not the A-B-C's written right into the law, rather than giving such wide discretionary powers to your top super-Secretary?

Secretary PATTERSON. Well, you have to give broad powers. If you try to define too closely, you leave out the actual contingency that comes up. That is true all through our structure of government, and is not peculiar to this particular case.

The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt there?

Mr. Secretary, are the powers presently set up for the Secretaries of War and Navy spelled out in A-B-C form?

Secretary PATTERSON. Not that I know of.

The CHAIRMAN. Any more so than in this bill?

Secretary PATTERSON. Not as much, I suppose. I don't know. My assumption would be that their duty is to administer and manage the Department. It is as broad as that.

The CHAIRMAN. Are not the A-B-C's of the powers that the Navy and War Secretaries have to be found in the laws passed by Congress? Secretary PATTERSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You operate under those laws.
Secretary PATTERSON. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, specifically, in the setting up of the War and Navy Departments in the first place, were they given a list of rules to follow, or were they given broad powers? Do you know that?

Secretary PATTERSON. I have never made a study of it, Senator Gurney, but my guess would be that they are just expected to run their departments.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to have put in the record at this point the original law setting up the War and Navy Departments. (The law referred to is as follows:)

STATUTE I
CHAPTER VII

AN ACT To establish an Executive Department, to be denominated the Department of War

SECTION 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That there shall be an Executive Department to be denominated the Department of War, and that there shall be a principal officer therein, to be called the Secretary for the Department of War, who shall perform and execute such duties as shall from time to time be enjoined on, or entrusted to him by the President of the United States, agreeably to the Constitution, relative to military commissions, or to the land or naval forces, ships, or warlike stores of the United States, or to such other matters respecting military or naval affairs as the President of the United States shall assign to the said Department or relative to the granting of lands to persons entitled thereto, for military services rendered to the United States or relative to Indian affairs; and furthermore, That the said principal officer shall conduct the business of the said Department in such manner as the President of the United States shall from time to time order or instruct.

SEC. 2. And be it further enacted, That there shall be in the said Department an inferior officer, to be appointed by the said principal officer, to be employed therein as he shall deem proper, and to be called the Chief Clerk in the Department of War, and who, whenever the said principal officer shall be removed from office by the President of the United States, or in any other case of vacancy, shall, during such vacancy, have the charge and custody of all records, books, and papers, appertaining to the said Department.

SEC. 3. And be it further enacted, That the said principal officer and every other person to be appointed or employed in the said Department, shall, before he enters on the execution of his office or employment, take an oath or affirmation well and faithfully to execute the trust committed to him.

SEC. 4. And be it further enacted, That the Secretary for the Depatrment of War, to be appointed in consequence of this Act, shall forthwith after his appointment, be entitled to have the custody and charge of all records, books, and papers in the office of Secretary for the Department of War, heretofore established by the United States in Congress assembled.

Approved, August 7, 1789.

STATUTE II

April 30, 1798

CHAPTER XXXV

AN ACT To establish an Executive Department, to be denominated the Department of the Navy

SECTION 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That there shall be an executive department under the denomination of the Department of the Navy, the chief officer of which shall be called the Secretary of the Navy, whose duty it shall be to execute such orders as he shall receive from the President of the United States, relative to the procurement of naval stores and materials and the construction, armament, equipment, and employment of vessels of war, as well as all other matters connected with the naval establishment of the United States.

SEC. 2. And be it further enacted, that a principal clerk and such other clerks as he shall think necessary, shall be appointed by the Secretary of the Navy, who shall be employed in such manner as he shall deem most expedient. In case of vacancy in the Office of the Secretary, by removal or otherwise, it shall be the duty of the principal Clerk to take the charge and custody of all the books, records, and documents of the said office.

SEC. 3. And be it further enacted, That the Secretary of the Navy be and he is hereby authorized and empowered, immediately after he shall be appointed and shall enter upon the duties of his office, to take possession of all the records, books, and documents and all other matters and things appertaining to this Department which are now deposited in the Office of the Secretary of War.

SEC. 4. And be it further enacted, That there shall be allowed to the Secretary of the Navy an annual salary of Three thousand dollars, payable quarter yearly at the Treasury of the United States, and the respective Clerks in the Office of the said Department shall receive the same compensations and be subject to the same regulations as are provided by an act, supplemental to the Act establishing the Treasury Department, and for a further compensation to certain officers in the offices of the other executive departments.

SEC. 5. And be it further enacted, That so much of an act entitled "An Act to establish an Executive Department, to be denominated the Department of War" as vests any of the powers contemplated by the provisions of this Act, in the Secretary for the Department of War, shall be repealed, from and after the period when the Secretary of the Navy shall enter on the duties of his office.

Approved, April 30, 1798.

Senator BRIDGES. Mr. Secretary, let me clarify just a little bit my position. I do not want you to get the idea, either you or Secretary Forrestal, or anybody else that I am against the objective which you are seeking. I am trying to find out from you both whether you are for a merger, or integration, or what.

I agree with you that I am probably not familiar with all of the details. But it is also true that I do not know exactly what you are for. However, I think we seek the same objective.

Secretary PATTERSON. I said at the outset and also at the end, that I am for this bill.

Senator BRIDGES. Well, I cannot be for the bill as it is written. But I am for the same objective that you seek. What I want to ask you now is this: Do you not think it would be wise to stipulate right out in the bill the actual functions of the respective agencies and military departments?

Secretary PATTERSON. No.

Senator BRIDGES. Why?

Secretary PATTERSON. The contemplation is that the functions of the three services will be defined in an Executive order to be issued by the President. I think that is perfect. It is more flexible.