The Munitions Board, for example, if they make a decision which is within the authority given them by the Secretary of National Defense, given them by this statute, can communicate directly with the Army and Navy or all three of them; the Air Forces, too.

Senator ROBERTSON. They do now?

Mr. ROYALL. Yes, that is right, but that line is not on there either. Senator ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. ROYALL. That was not designed to have all of the methods of communication. It could not do it. Research and Development, the same thing is true. It is true of all of those boards across there. That does not say that they cannot communicate directly with the Department. There is no suggestion of that.

Senator ROBERTSON. Well, I am looking at this small chart here on the table.

Mr. ROYALL. Yes, sir.

(The chart referred to is inserted facing this page.)

Senator ROBERTSON. That shows definitely those lines going into the Secretary of National Defense are the only lines from the Secretary of National Defense to the Secretaries of the Army, Navy and Air Forces.

Mr. ROYALL. Yes, sir. If I have not made it clear, I would like to say that this chart here says the President is superior to the National Security Council and the National Resources Board and the Secretary of National Defense, and that the Secretary of National Defense is superior to those four boards under the red line. He is superior to the extent provided in the statute to the Secretaries of the three departments, but it does not mean, and I believe that these gentlemen who drew it will corroborate me in every respect, Admiral Sherman and General Norstad, that it does not mean or was not intended to mean that it included every method of communication from every person on there to every other person. As I say, a chart that would do that would be tremendous.

Senator ROBERTSON. I am not suggesting that Chief of Staff of the Army, after his meeting, would not possibly go to the Secretary of the Army and tell him what had happened at that meeting. I am not suggesting that would not be so; that would be the natural thing to do. But what I am suggesting is that according to this chart we have been working on during these hearings, that the decisions of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the War Council and the Munitions Board, and Research and Development Board, go direct, and must be passed through the Secretary of National Defense.

Mr. ROYALL. I may be wrong. Now, this thing I would like to invite a correction from either General Norstad or Admiral Sherman. The CHAIRMAN. Let us invite correction or corroboration.

Mr. ROYALL. If the Joint Chiefs of Staff within the authority given by this statute reach a decision which affects the Army, the Navy, or the Marine Corps, they can communicate directly to the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps, can they not?

The CHAIRMAN. Let them answer direct.

Vice Admiral SHERMAN. The actual practice of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, sir, is that each member while collectively responsible for the decisions as a member is individually responsible for implementing those decisions within his own service, and as a matter of regular practice, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in dealing with a unified command, designate one to be their executive agent for that unified command.

For instance, when the Joint Chiefs of Staff make a decision applicable to General MacArthur's command, that formal decision is transmitted from the Joint Chiefs of Staff to General MacArthur, but minor details in connection with that are handled by General Eisenhower as the executive agent.

Similarly Admiral Nimitz is the executive agent for the Pacific Command. Similarly General Spaatz is the executive agent for the Alaskan Command.

But each member is responsible for implementing those decisions within his own service, and the Chief of Naval Operations, although he sits as a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, is legally also the principal naval advisor to the Secretary of the Navy, and I believe legally is also the principal naval adviser to the President in his capacity as Commander in Chief of the Navy.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the set-up as it is today.

Vice Admiral SHERMAN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the set-up as it would be under this bill? Vice Admiral SHERMAN. I would anticipate no change whatsoever, except now in a matter which has to do with administration, if the Joint Chiefs of Staff wish to send a recommendation to the President on an administrative matter, as contrasted with operational matter, their procedure is to address a recommendation to the Secretary of War and the Secretary of the Navy, in order that he may then send it on to the President.

Under the new bill that category of decision or recommendation, they would submit their decision or recommendation to the Secretary of National Defense, who would take the place of the Secretary of War and Secretary of Navy where they function together.

Mr. ROYALL. He would do that, but he does not have to do that. The Joint Chiefs of Staff can communicate directly with the President if they desire.

Vice Admiral SHERMAN. Yes.

Senator ROBERTSON. What you were saying is that they would submit their decisions to the Secretary of National Defense, would they not?

Mr. ROYALL. If they were going to the President.

Vice Admiral SHERMAN. They would.

Senator ROBERTSON. Whether going to the President or not, they can go direct to the President?

Vice Admiral SHERMAN. The Joint Chiefs of Staff under the new set-up would submit any decision which require approval, that would have to go either to the Secretary of National Defense or the President. It would not have to funnel through the three individual Secretaries before going on up.

Mr. ROYALL. That is true today. If you make a decision today that requires Presidential approval, it can go to the President, can it not? Vice Admiral SHERMAN. Yes.

Senator ROBERTSON. Only in this case it is going to the Secretary of National Defense.

Let us go a little further on this Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Mr. ROYALL. Was my statement correct that if the Joint Chiefs of Staff make a decision, General Norstad, within the powers given them, can they communicate directly to the various three forces?

General NORSTAD. Yes, sir. They actually do that now, because of their dual capacity as members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and as individual service chiefs. They bring that back and within the powers that they have as chiefs of their respective services, they issue the order and carry out the decision of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Mr. ROYALL. This law would not change that?

General NORSTAD. That is correct. The administrative matters referred to by Admiral Sherman are recommendations to the department heads.

Senator ROBERTSON. Let us go a little further on this Joint Chiefs of Staff.

There has been objection by a number of witnesses to anything definite in the bill as to the functions and various missions and roles. There has been a complete objection to setting down in detail the functions of the various armed forces, the Army and the Navy and the Air Forces, and that has been carried out in the bill. It has been said it is a loosely drawn bill, but it does seem strange that when it comes to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, their functions are set out in detail, on page 12, line 14, section 111 (a):

There is hereby established within the National Defense Establishment the Joints Chiefs of Staff, which shall consist of the Chief of Staff, United States Army; the Chief of Naval Operations; the Chief of Staff, United States Air Force; and the Chief of Staff to the Commander in Chief, if there be one.

(b) Subject to the authority and direction of the President and the Secretary of National Defense, it shall be the duty of the Joint Chiefs of Staff--

(1) to prepare strategic plans and to provide for the strategic direction of the military forces;

(2) to prepare joint logistic plans and to assign to the military services logistic responsibilities in accordance with such plans;

These are the duties of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as set out in S. 758. (3) to establish unified commands in strategic areas when such unified commands are in the interest of national security;

(4) to formulate policies for joint training of the military forces;

(5) to review major material and personnel_requirements of the military forces, in accordance with strategic and logistic plans;

(6) to provide United States representation on the Military Staff Sommittee of the United Nations in accordance with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations.

(c) The Joint Chiefs of Staff shall act as the principal military advisers to the President and the Secretary of National Defense, and shall perform such other duties as they may direct or may be prescribed by law.

That seems to me to place the Joint Chiefs of Staff definitely by law, if this bill is passed as it is, and those are their functions. In other words they are the military advisers to the Secretary of National Defense.

Mr. ROYALL. Senator Robertson, I cannot agree that this bill is loosely drawn. I think it is well drawn and carefully drawn.

Senator ROBERTSON. I did not use the word "loosely" in that meaning, Mr. Secretary. The word "loosely" has been used by witnesses here as more in a general coverage rather than imperfectly or loosely in the term that you possibly understood that I used it.

Mr. ROYALL. I possibly misunderstood you.

As to the section 111, which you read, I think the functions as you used it in reference to the sentence is used in the sense of the various armed forces. Section 111 prescribes the duties of the Chiefs of Staff. It does not say what strategic plans there would be. It does

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not say what logistic responsibilities are given to the various services, and I think rightly so. I would object to that being done, trying to define it in the bill, just as much as I would object to freezing their general functions beyond the extent, the bill provides.

This subsection (c) that they are military advisers to the President and the Secretary of National Defense they are now military advisers to the President, and that does not affect, that additional language, it does not seem to me, in any way their method of operation, except in an instance where they cannot agree, and then the Secretary of National Defense would have authority, unless the President directed otherwise, to make the decision; I think with the power to make that decision there would not be many occasions where it will have to be exercised.

In normal procedure the Joint Chiefs of Staff will make the decisions, and probably make them with more celerity than they have in some instances in the past, and will direct the military side of the War Department, of the three departments, as they do of the two departments today.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe we are running close to the end of the hearing this morning, and I believe that we should offer Senators Saltonstall and Baldwin an opportunity to question the Secretary, in case they have anything.

Senator SALTONSTALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Baldwin, do you have any questions?

Senator BALDWIN. Is it not the fact that the Army and the Navy and the Air Force, the Marine Corps and the Coast Guard, as at present comprised, are recognized by legislation? I mean there are laws on the statute books that recognize an Army and a Navy and the various component parts of them."

Mr. ROYALL. Yes, sir; to some extent. I do know the component parts are recognized to a limited extent, and in that connection I would like to say this, that at one time in the history of the Government there was a tendency to define just how many men should be in a regiment, how many regiments you should have, what they should do. I remember one law said that the infantry company could not have but four washwomen.

They have changed that now, and the flexibility has proven to be the best system. Therefore, the statute does not go into the details of the components like they did at one time.

Senator BALDWIN. But I mean generally as a general classification of the different branches of the armed forces, it is recognized. Mr. ROYALL. Yes.

Senator BALDWIN. Would not this act, if enacted in the present form, in effect repeal that, all of that?

Mr. ROYALL. I do not think so, sir.

Senator BALDWIN. Frovided that the Department of the Army, the Department of the Navy, and the Department of the Air Force under the direction of the Secretary of National Defense shall be administered as individual units by their respective Secretaries.

When you take that language with the language further up in that section, which gives to the new Secretary of National Defense very broad authority as you stated that he had, when you read that language together. Is it not possible that the functions, the basic func