a little more than half a year on the average that those people will be employed.

Mr. JENSEN. That is man-years?

Mr. MILES. Yes.

Mr. JENSEN. But you are asking for $360,000 for that purpose? Mr. MILES. Yes.

Mr. JENSEN. Then you are asking in addition to that $760 on the average for each one of the employees for travel, communication services, other contractual services, supplies and materials, and equipment. Mr. MILES. One of the reasons for that is the need for travel expenses. If we are to do any kind of a decent job in connection with this, we will have to go into the local communities and take a look with our own eyes at the situation, talk with the local people on their own local ground.

If we do not, we certainly will not be able to conserve the Government's money and do a real job of surveying local needs, and so on. Mr. JENSEN. That accounts for $73,000?

Mr. MILES. Yes, sir. That is the bulk of the amount other than personal services.

Mr. JENSEN. I want to note that there is $73,000 for travel; communication services, $1,352; printing and binding, $4,500; other contractual services, $53,160; supplies and materials, $3,741; and $4,247 for equipment. What does the item of $53,160 entail?

Mr. MILES. $50,000 is for transfer to the Housing and Home Finance Agency for the purpose of carrying out our share of what we refer to as the "means test," the way of determining the fiscal capacity of each community. There is no purpose in having two different agencies going in and examining the fiscal capacity. The Housing and Home Finance Agency have done that sort of work, and they have part of this total program.

We are in full agreement that they should do the job. $50,000 of that is for transfer to them to do that.

Mr. JENSEN. Every city of any size has a secretary of the chamber of commerce. They have the facilities, the officials who could give them most of the facts. Is it not possible to send out a questionnaire? Probably they could do that better than anyone else could go out and do it, and in a week's time. It would be a very simple form, maybe just 25 or 30 questions on it that would do the job properly, instead of spending a lot of money here to send these folks all over the country. They are not schooled in the art, particularly, are they? You do not have enough people to handle 200 areas; do you?

Mr. MILES. The Housing and Home Finance Agency does not have enough to handle 200 areas, but they do have a number right now who are schooled in the art, and they would expand that number partly from the transfer of funds involved here.

I would say in answer to your question, Congressman Jensen, that being an old budget man myself, I certainly would hesitate to rely upon questionnaires answered by the chamber of commerce or even in some cases local officials, using that as a basis of determining the fiscal capacity without going in and taking a good close look at the situation to make sure that your understanding of the situation is a complete and accurate one.

Mr. JENSEN. I do not think they would lie, especially on paper, just to get the facilities. I do not believe they would go that far.

That

Mr. MILES. It is not a question of doubting their word, sir. is not what I had in mind to imply. I do believe that the data oftentimes are subject to more than one interpretation. It is necessary to get an interpretation of the data as wll as raw figures.

Mr. JENSEN. Then I have just one more question. Out of the approximately 2,600,000 Federal employees that are now on the payroll, or will be as soon as all the appropriation bills go through, it would seem to me you would be able to find the people you want.

I notice the kind of people you are requesting here. I notice that you are requesting a program director at a salary of $10,000. Then you are requesting an assistant program director, three of them, for $26,400. Hospital construction engineer, $8,800. Then you have a public-health engineer at $8,800. You have a construction cost analyst at $7,600. You know that the General Services and the Army engineers, and most every department of Government has such fellows by the hundreds that could do this job. Then you have a hospital construction engineer, $7,600. You have a hospital-equipment specialist, two of them, $15,200; a nurse consultant at $7,600. You have a program-service specialist, four of them, for $30,400. A facilities specialist, there are four of them, at $30,400. Then you have a public health engineer at $6,400; a survey and program analyst, two of them, for a total of $12,800. Then you have a financial-management officer at $5,400. Then you have a fiscal analyst at $4,600. Then you have some 11 folks which you want to pay $34,800, and so on down the line.

Do you not think, as I said before, out of the 2,600,000 people, civilian Federal employees, that you can scratch up those folks without adding another burden to the taxpayers of America who are now, under these figures that I have quoted, going to be obliged to pay around $13 billion for these 2,600,000 Federal employees in the fiscal year 1952?

Here is the way it figures: The average right now that a Federal employee gets is $3,679. Just the other day we voted an increase which will amount to about $500 a year. Then the average for all the related services, travel, per diem, leave pay, printing and binding, and other office equipment will amount to about what you are asking for here for each one, $760 apiece. So there you have approximately $5,000 which a Federal employee is going to cost the taxpayers of America. You multiply 2,600,000 by $5,000 and you have $13 billion for civilian personnel expenditures for the fiscal year 1952, and you are coming in here and asking for more employees. Now, you go ahead and justify it, Mr. Miles.

Mr. MILES. Congressman Jensen, I cannot speak with respect to the whole Government, nor with respect to the 2,600,000 employees. I will have to confine myself to the Federal Security Agency. I must confess that in the 11 months that I have been with the Federal Security Agency I have been trying as best I could to get the ever-increasing, ever-mounting load of work done with the staff that is available to us, and it is an extremely difficult job.

If I may be personal for the moment, I have myself in the last 11 months put in about, I figure, 4 months of overtime, about 12 hours a day, sometimes more, working practically every week end in those 11 months, and still the work gets heavier and heavier.

I am looking for other ways of breaking the bottleneck, but we have more and more programs. Let me illustrate. Let me take the pro

gram of allocating critical materials for school and hospital construc tion. That is a big additional load that has been put on us in addition to our regular workload. We are absorbing a major portion of it. The people in the hospital construction and education fields were already heavily loaded but have taken their share of that on top of the regular workload. There comes a time when your absorption power is absolutely squeezed out.

I must say, sir, that I share your interest in economy, but from where I sit it looks to me as though the estimate which we have presented to you represents a rock-bottom minimum to do a job of surveying local needs and assuring ourselves that the money which is spent for these purposes is spent for only the most essential needs. So, with the job we will have to do with all these chamber of commerce representatives and representatives from communities over the Nation, dealing with the Department of Defense, with the USO, the Housing and Home Finance Agency, I just do not know where the people are coming from unless we do get perhaps some money to hire some of the ones who may be laid off from other agencies in the process of some reductions that may be made.

We certainly within our Agency are right up to the hilt so far as the workload is concerned.

Mr. JENSEN. Of course, Mr. Miles, I do not question anything you have said. I must say that I have sat across the table from Agency heads for the past 9 years and every one of them has the same story. Now, there is something wrong some place. I think too many of them do not know how to organize and delegate authority and responsibility to their assistants.

I think that is one of the great problems. We are so subdepartmentalized in our Government today that it is pitiful. I have been told by folks that have come to my office, branch heads who work in the departments, "Well, they tell me even though we don't have anything to do in our branch we must stay on our own ground, in our own bailiwick, and not go over and help the folks across the aisle."

Just as long as that condition exists I presume we are going to continue piling them on and piling them on, but certainly this thing cannot go on. I hope that you will attempt to get these people that you need from other regular agencies without going outside and hiring additional help. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HEDRICK. Mr. Andersen.

HOSPITAL PROGRAM

Mr. ANDERSEN. I have a question that I would like to ask of Dr. Dearing relative to the inclusion of hospitals in this proposed program. First, Doctor, how much money would you say is contained herein for the hospital program, together with the necessary personnel?

Dr. DEARING. Mr. Miles gave the breakdown this morning. It is roughly $11 million for construction.

Mr. ANDERSEN. $11,380,000. I notice that.

Dr. DEARING. And something a little over a million for maintenance and operation.

Mr. ANDERSEN. That, of course, would be in addition to, and above what, the Congress has provided for the Hill-Burton Act? Dr. DEARING. Yes, sir..

Mr. ANDERSEN. How much did the Congress put up for fiscal 1952 to implement the Hill-Burton Act?

Dr. DEARING. I believe it was $82,500,000.

Mr. ANDERSEN. As you know, when you divide the $82,500,000 between the States, it does not appear to be such a large sum. In fact, this Federal grant to Minnesota becomes so small that I have attempted without success for 3 years to get consideration for a small hospital in a community in my district, which needs a hospital very badly.

It seems to me that in this particular item, where we are considering a $11,380,000 additional grant just for certain favored communities, that perhaps we should study this proposal very carefully. Of course, national defense and defense workers sort of cloak the whole thing with a little aura of glamor. But that does not help my people back in that little community who have been trying for 3 years to get adequate hospital facilities.

The States do have the right each year to reevaluate the allocations under the Hill-Burton Act?

Dr. DEARING. Yes, sir.

Mr. ANDERSEN. Suppose a critical situation does occur down at Aiken, S. C. Certainly, there are hospitals within a certain number of miles from that particular area. The situation cannot get too acute right overnight. I do not like to see a huge amount of additional money dumped down into South Carolina under the guise of national defense when small communities throughout the Nation have been trying to get a little consideration toward taking care of their people without any appreciable success.

I am wondering about this specific suggestion: Would it not be better if the Congress were to put up additional money for the HillBurton Act and keep this new proposal entirely out of the picture? If we do not have sufficient hospital facilities, let us provide for these hospitals under the basic law. Let us put more money in there, into the Hill-Burton Act, and thereby, I think, assure to the various States concerned of a square deal.

Do you see my point? Do you not think, Doctor, that this plan could be eliminated here entirely and instead work toward the end of giving more funds to the Hill-Burton Act?

Dr. DEARING. Additional funds for the Hill-Burton Act would permit some of these things to be taken better care of, if you will. As I stated earlier, the two enactments by the Congress, one, the Hill-Burton Act, with its 1950 amendment, and this Public Law 139, for which an appropriation is requested, both taken together on the advice of our counsel, first, do not permit us to require the States to put their plants especially in the defense areas.

Mr. ANDERSEN. But will not the various States put the money where it is most needed, in the final analysis?

Dr. DEARING. That is the basic assumption.

Mr. ANDERSEN. I certainly have confidence in my board in Minnesota that they will put their small allocation of money wherever it is most needed. Certainly if an area does develop that needs hospital facilities and needs them badly, it seems to me that the States would take care of it themselves out of their allotment.

Dr. DEARING. As I say, Public Law 139 was enacted by the Congress and authorized the hospital facilities in areas defined as critical areas under the terms specified here.

Mr. ANDERSEN. What I am afraid of, Doctor, is that we will get. fooled by this term "critical areas," defense workers, and all of that.

After all, there are 150 million Americans in this great country of ours, and I cannot conceive of scarcely any great defense establishment but what if a man or woman becomes seriously ill an ambulance can take them 25 or 50 miles to a good hospital; can you, Mr. Jensen? Mr. JENSEN. Well, they are doing it and nobody is suffering too much.

Mr. ANDERSEN. They could at least do it temporarily. There is no great big rush to get in here and commence a big hospital construction program in these areas which are being built up like mushrooms because of the war emergency.

What I do think we should do, and this comes, Dr. Eliot, indirectly under your line of supervision, is something about the reenactment of the nurses training program.

You will recall years ago that in this same committee room we commenced that program. Do you not think we should be thinking seriously of something like that? We trained 60,000 nurses during World War II. Do you have any program in view, or do you have any such idea in mind, Dr. Dearing?

Dr. DEARING. There are two bills before the House. One is the general bill for the assistance and training of the health professions, which covers physicians, dentists, nurses, public health administrators and dental hygienists. That is before the House Interstate and Foreign Commerce Committee at the present time.

There is also the Bolton bill. I do not remember the numbers of either of those. The Bolton bill addresses itself particularly to assistance and nurses training.

As I stated this morning, we view the shortage of nurses as the most critical shortage in personnel.

Mr. ANDERSEN. I understand that you have urged this before the Congress this year I think something should have been done by this time.

Dr. DEARING. The bills are before the Congress and we have testified.

Mr. ANDERSEN. We know, like our colleague has said, it does no good to construct a brick-masonry edifice if you do not have the staff to take care of the patients in those hospitals.

Dr. ELIOT. I would just like to respond to the Congressman's comment on the training of nurses. Of course, in the Children's Bureau in connection with many of our programs of child health we are very concerned with this question of having an adequate number of nurses in the country.

Mr. ANDERSEN. I know that is very close to your heart. I remember years ago that you testified in behalf of it.

Dr. ELIOT. I would like to have you know that I returned to my position in the Children's Bureau only within the last 3 weeks. I did not have an opportunity to testify on that, and if I had been here I would have testified for that.

Mr. ANDERSEN. I am not criticizing. I think we may be putting the cart before the horse. We do need the personnel for these hospitals if we are to construct them. I know we need more and more nurses.

Mr. JENSEN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a comment. It seems we have to have good sewers to take the sewage away from the homes, but we dump it right into the streams, which is the most insanitary thing that is going on in America.