Mr. MILES. The Defense Department would like to have us construct suitable recreational buildings in those areas.

The USO, as I indicated this morning, will be raising about $14 million, hopefully, this fall, to actually provide the services in community buildings and in buildings on the military posts for servicemen. The actual programing of the recreational work and the pay of the people will come from a combination of the communities and the USO. So far as the estimate that is here is concerned, the primary purpose of it would be to construct recreational buildings in these areas adjacent to military camps.

Mr. HEDRICK. Would you mind giving us the location of these 12 areas for the record?

Mr. MILES. I will be glad to. The areas are: Limestone Air Force Base, Limestone, Caribou, and Fort Fairfield, Maine; Eglin Air Force Base, Valpariso, and Fort Walton, Fla.; Orlando Air Force Base and Pinecastle Air Force Base, Orlando, Fla.; Moody Air Force Base, Valdosta, Ga.; Robins Air Force Base, Warner-Robins, Ga.; Keesler Air Force Base, Biloxi, Miss.; Lake Charles Air Force Base, Lake Charles, La.; Bryan Air Force Base, Bryan, Tex.; Parks Air Force Base, Hayward, Pleasanton, and Livermore, Calif.; Travis Air Force Base, Fairfield and Suisun, Calif.; Mountain Home Air Force Base, Mountain Home, Idaho; Larson Air Force Base, Moses Lake, Wash.

ESTIMATED COST OF RECREATION FACILITIES

Mr. McGRATH. Will you tell us what the $31,847,000 is to be used for? Will you tell us how you have arrived at this figure, and tell the committee what you are going to use it for? You will find it on the second page of your statement.

Mr. MILES. The figure of $31,847,000 represents the amount of money that was spent during World War II under the Lanham Act. We propose in the budget which is before you to spend approximately $1,200,000 for recreational purposes instead of the $31,000,000 which is contained in that tabulation.

Mr. McGRATH. You intend to spend the $1,200,000 in this appropriation and come back before the committee next year, as you put it, the winter or spring season for another appropriation, do you not? Mr. ANDERSEN. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. McGRATH. Yes.

Mr. ANDERSEN. That, I believe, is the nub of the whole thing. We are here discussing the beginning of what might be a huge program in the future.

Mr. McGRATH. That is what I would like to develop.

Mr. ANDERSEN. I think you are making very good inquiries based upon that reasoning.

Mr. MILES. Judge McGrath, the amount of money which the Congress has authorized for this program is $60 million. That is the

maximum. The amount of money which the President has in the request which is now before the Congress totals $40 million, which would leave a maximum balance which could be requested under the law next spring of approximately $20 million. So there is a ceiling set.

Mr. MCGRATH. Would you tell us how much in addition to this $1,200,000 eventually this program will cost us for recreational facilities?

Mr. MILES. That is difficult to say, sir, but my guess is it would not exceed in total under this law the sum of $2 million.

Mr. McGRATH. Have you any definite plans for the expenditure of this $1,200,000 at the present time?

Mr. MILES. The experience during World War II

Mr. MCGRATH. No, have you any definite plans now?

Mr. MILES. Not in terms of having laid out specific buildings so we can tell you exactly how much each building in each locality will

cost.

Mr. McGRATH. Then how did you arrive at the figure of $1,200,000? Mr. MILES. In this manner: The amount of money per building which was required during World War II was about $100,000. We believe that even though construction costs have gone up very markedly, the buildings can be considerably modified and made smaller, designed more economically, and so on, so that the buildings on the average would not cost more than they did during World War

II.

The $1,200,000 would represent, under those circumstances, provision for approximately 10 buildings, plus $200,000-some-odd for services.

The Air Force alone has told us now that they feel 12 buildings in those areas are needed. The Department of the Army has indicated informally-we do not have a letter from them-that there are other areas probably totaling 25 to 30 which would need facilities.

We would not propose to build facilities in all the places that the Departments of the Army and Air Force would want them.

TYPE AND USES OF RECREATION FACILITIES

Mr. McGRATH. What would the use of these buildings be? Mr. MILES. The buildings could be used primarily by the military personnel and their families off post where there are no adequate local recreational facilities, and where the camps are remote from normal cities and community recreational facilities.

Mr. MCGRATH. Who would conduct the recreational facilities? Mr. MILES. The USO by and large would do that, either the USO or the combination of the USO and the community itself.

Mr. McGRATH. Does the Federal Security Agency contemplate going into the recreational field?

Mr. MILES. No, sir.

Mr. McGRATH. They are just going to build them and then turn them over to the USO, is that correct?

Mr. MILES. We would hope we would not even have to erect the building, that the community itself would erect the building with the aid of some Federal funds; then the USO and the community would operate the program.

URGENCY OF NEED FOR RECREATION FACILITIES

Mr. ANDERSEN. Will you permit one question there? Is there any particular urgency as to this item in any of these communities which you might have in mind? In other words, is the population so heavy that the immediate construction of these is required for recreational purposes?

In

Mr. MILES. Well, sir, that is a matter of judgment, of course. many instances the number of military personnel who have moved in far exceeds the total population of the nearby communities.

Mr. ANDERSEN. Is not the Army doing anything about this problem? Mr. MILES. They have a small staff of personnel, a few people for the purpose of trying to get the communities to do everything they can. But they do not have any money for the erection of buildings, facilities in these nearby communities.

Mr. ANDERSEN. What happened to all of the old facilities which were put up for similar purposes during World War II at practically the same camps? Were they abandoned or torn down?

Mr. MILES. Many of them are still in use, sir. Some of them were turned back to the community. Some of them have been sold and used in other ways. But all of those buildings which are adjacent to the camps which existed during World War II and which are available are being put back to use for this purpose.

RESPONSIBILITIES OF LOCAL COMMUNITIES IN RECREATION FACILITIES PROGRAM

Mr. McGRATH. The General Services Agency has been set up with a very elaborate corps of engineers and architects. Is it not a fact that your agency now is going to duplicate this in planning these buildings? I am talking about the $1,200,000.

Mr. MILES. I do not believe so, Judge McGrath. Our policy will be to have the local community itself do the programing and submit plans and specifications. They will hire the engineers themselves, their own architectural firm. Our job will be that of reviewing the need and the extent of their fiscal capacity, and so on, and how much money, if any, the Federal Government ought to put in to help them do the job.

The whole emphasis will be that of placing the main burden on the local community. We will simply do what is necessary.

RESPONSIBILITY OF HOUSING AND HOME FINANCE AGENCY

Mr. McGRATH. Who is going to supervise the construction of the building to see whether the plans and specifications have been lived up to, the Federal Security Agency?

Mr. MILES. It depends on the type of facility.

Mr. McGRATH. We are talking now about recreational facilities. Mr. MILES. If that arises, the Housing and Home Finance Agency would do that. We would transfer funds to them to do that. Mr. McGRATH. They would have to have engineers.

Mr. MILES. They have some now.

Mr. McGRATH. As to the other type of work, your other expenditures, any other buildings besides recreational facilities. Would you go in for anything else?

Mr. MILES. The various types of facilities for which this estimate provides are sewage-treatment works, water-purification plants, hospitals and health facilities, day-care facilities there would be very few of those, just perhaps a couple of them—and recreational facilities, and refuse disposal.

Mr. McGRATH. Then I take all your testimony to the effect that up to this point it is still in the formative stage, is that correct, all your planning?

Mr. MILES. Yes, I would say it was in the developmental stage. This law was only enacted on the first of September.

COST OF FORMING UP A DEFINITE PLAN FOR COMMUNITY FACILITIES

Mr. McGRATH. In answer to a question this morning you said it would take about $200,000 at the present time for you to plan this work, so that you would come back before Congress then and tell us in the next session of Congress what the definite plans would be, is that correct?

Mr. MILES. I made that preliminary guesstimate, so to speak; yes, sir. In thinking about it over the noon hour I felt that I ought to amplify and comment upon that. I am sure you recognize what a difficult position we would be in in trying to obtain the necessary personnel. We would have to get them from State health departments, a few of them from State welfare departments, and elsewhere.

This would be to do a job for a period of 4 months. Then if we were to come back to the Congress for additional funds-I am now only talking about the administrative expense side and not about the grants and would have to lay those people off with the expectation of rehiring them if and when Congress appropriated more money, I think that under those circumstances we would have grave difficulty, if not faced with an impossibility, of getting any kind of decent personnel for a temporary period, followed by a haitus, and then by another period of employment after that.

So that I would urge strongly that we be given a sufficient sum to cover the entire year as far as salaries and expenses are concerned, although I recognize as far as the grants, and so on are concerned, it might be the wish of this committee and the Congress to defer making appropriations of the size that are indicated here.

Mr. MCGRATH. Do you not think, that for us to go before Congress and ask for $25 million plus, with the program such as you have outlined, that Congress might be justified in asking a good many questions as to what your definite plans are?

Mr. MILES. I do; yes, sir.

Mr. McGRATH. And as a former member of the Bureau of the Budget you would be rather hesitant, would you not, to approve $25 million in a presentation such as we have here?

IMMEDIATE NEED FOR SOME FUNDS

Mr. MILES. I admit that the circumstances are not of the kind that make an ex-budgeteer happy. I would like to comment, however, that in respect to the situation we find outselves in, especially in relation to such problems as those of this large Savannah River area, that if we do not appropriate some funds now to get the program under way, I think the people in that area, to take one example, are going to be in fairly difficult straits by the time facilities are provided.

I would think that at least some appropriation as a starter for these areas that are really urgent now would be definitely needed,

Mr. McGRATH. You have been so fair in your statement that I have no more questions to ask.

DESCRIPTION OF RECREATION BUILDINGS

Mr. HEDRICK. Going back to the 12 recreational centers, how many pool rooms and bowling alleys will be in those?

Mr. MILES. I would not know, sir. I was not involved in this kind of program during World War II. Mr. Snyder who is here was. I would like to get him to comment on that question.

Mr. SNYDER. In World War II, among the buildings that were built, I do not know of any that had the type of facility that you have mentioned.

Mr. HEDRICK. What are the buildings usually used for? What are the typical buildings and what are in them?

Mr. SNYDER. The buildings in World War II were centers in the community in which men in uniform customarily went on leave on evenings and week ends when they were off the post.

They consisted usually of a rather moderately sized assembly room, which was used for dances and occasionally was used for volley ball and other athletic activities. There was usually a stage at the end where you could have a play or present some musical activities.

In connection with it there was usually a lounge which was comfortably furnished so that men could meet their acquaintances in the community. Oftentimes it was a place of social meeting with hostesses provided by the USO. It was a chance for the young men to meet the young women of the community under favorable circumstances. Mr. HEDRICK. Did they have moving pictures in these buildings? Mr. SNYDER. In some of the larger buildings there was an opportunity for portable moving pictures. There were rooms where men could write letters home. There was a space in some of them where they could go into a rather small room with good soundproofing and listen to phonograph records. There was usually a little center or sometimes an alcove where on a community basis books were assembled where the men could read, and magazines and newspapers were made available.

In most of the buildings there was a small snack bar where you could get soft drinks, sandwiches, candy and milk-sort of a milk bar. Mr. HEDRICK. How about beer?

Mr. SNYDER. I think in some cases; yes. But you must remember that most of these centers that were built were turned over-I think about two-thirds of them, those that were not operated by the municipal department-to USO organizations. The Salvation Army was one of the USO organizations, and you would not expect to find anything other than soft drinks in those.

Mr. HEDRICK. As a rule, they did not have swimming pools?

SUMMARY EXPLANATION OF NEED FOR RECREATIONAL FACILITIES

Mr. SNYDER. I know of none that did. I might just add another word about the recreational center. As Mr. Miles pointed out, there are a few of them, some 40 or 45 that are still in use. I think we would have to rely entirely upon the military departments for recommendations and sponsorship as to the type of communities in which this facility would be needed and would be essential.