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Mr. BARTLEY. I think I would have to see it before I would know. Mr. Brown. Well, these programs are fairly common, aren't they? Mr. BARTLEY. Mr. Ray handles them every day.

Mr. Ray. Mr. Brown, what you are talking about, as I understand it, is not logged as sponsored. It is identified, as the Commissioner has said, as furnished by the particular service or organization that is furnishing it.

Mr. BROWN. Identified within the program? Mr. Ray. Yes, within the program. And these spot announcements which may be recruiting announcements for the Air Force, within it, are considered public service announcements, unsponsored public service announcements, but the source of the program is almost universally identified. Actually, the Commission rules on this point do not-well, what

is that any material, broadcast material, dealing with political matters, or matters of public controversy and furnished free to a station as an inducement to broadcasting, must be identified as so furnished. So it comes down to a question of whether the matter within the program deals with a political or a controversial issue matter, as to whether the identification is actually required by the rules.

But most broadcasting stations, in my experience, insist that the source of this matter be identified on the air for the sake of clarity for their listeners and to preclude people writing them and asking them, "Who gave you this?”

Mr. Brown. I am the local broadcaster going on the air and I say, “The next 15 minutes is a program furnished by the U.S. Air Force." and the program comes on and says, "Here are the Singing Sergeants" and so forth and they entertain for a while and usually have a guest spot or some celebrity as a guest in the program, as I am familiar with the program; and during that 15 minutes there are then messages about how wonderful it is to be in the Air Force and the good service the Air Force performs for the country and so forth.

Now, my question is: Does the station get public service time credit for the full 15 minutes? Does it get public service time credit for the recruiting announcements or the "Join the Air Force" kind of statements within the program?

How is that carried ?

Then, is the theory that the station has been compensated for carrying those announcements based on the amount of entertainment contained in the program; in other words, the programing context that is in the program, because I think it relates to the question of paying for the time in a commercial spot about "Join the Volunteer Army" and so forth.

Can you answer? Do you understand what I ask?

Mr. Ray. Yes, sir. Only the spots within it may be classified as public service announcements. The whole program, if it is a 1%-hour concert by the Army Band or Marine Band, with three recruiting announcements in it, the licensee is entitled to log only those announcements as public service announcements or public service time. The rest becomes entertainment.

Now, the second part of your question does not really arise within the Commission's prosecution; that is not considered a sponsored program if no payment is received for it. This is considered an overall sustaining entertainment program with three public service announcements within it.

Mr. Brown. The fact that the disk or tape comes to the station without cost and so forth does not get to be considered as in any way compensation?

Mr. Ray. That is correct.

Mr. Brown. I probably have gone over my time, but I want to make one more point.

There is such a program identified as “Religion in the News” or “World Church News" or some such thing put out, for instance, by the Lutheran Church in America, a very good program, which contains no recruiting message as such for membership in the church, I guess, but it does contain the announcement that “This program is brought to you” for the announcement, I guess, could be locally initiated by the Lutheran Church of America, a very professionally done thing. But I think quite obviously it is provided to stations on request free for both the general subject matter message, and it is not, you know, a preaching type program. It is just a news program.

Do you know the program I am talking about?
Mr. Ray. I am familiar with it, yes, sir.

Mr. Brown. What is the position of the Commission with reference to that program? Is that a public service program? Is it part of the responsibility of the station to program religious—to include religious programing or where does it fall in this sort of difficult definition area of "what is public service” and “what is not public service" and "what is commercial" and "what is not commercial"?

Mr. Ray. I was just going to say Commissioner Bartley has the list.

Mr. BARTLEY. It is stated: “Religious programs (R) include sermons or devotionals, religious news”.

Mr. Brown. Excuse me, but the sermons or devotionals are "Keep those cards and letters coming in support of our efforts”—is that what it is?

Mr. BARTLEY. This does not say. It is a short one and I will read it and try to say whether or not solicitation is involved.

I don't know whether it is included in or not. But "religious programs includes sermons or devotionals, religious news, drama, and other types of programs designed primarily for religious purposes.

That is the end of the definition on it. Your question was what?

Mr. Brown. Well, I mean this is another area entirely, but where are the

programs that wind up with “Keep the cards and letters coming" or "Write us for the pamphlet,” which includes something that will fold up into an envelope?

Mr. BARTLEY. You would assume they are defined as religious programs even though they do keep the cards and letters coming?

Mr. Brown. Well, my time is about up.
Mr. VAN DEERLIN (presiding). Mr. Byron.
Mr. Byron. No questions.
Mr. VAN DEERLIN. Mr. Collins.

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Mr. COLLINS. We are always delighted to have people from the Commission come in.

Mr. BARTLEY. We enjoy it, too.

Mr. COLLINS. Everybody talks about what is going on and what does the Commission think and rule, and all of that and I would like to get a little bit into a broader interpretation of some of the facets related to this.

One of them, we have ruled that we can't advertise tobacco on the radio or television, but yet we have not done anything about prohibiting advertising on billboards or newspapers or anywhere else. In fact, every time I look at a billboard at home, as I was down there this week, I saw nothing but tobacco billboards. Is that equitable? Is it fair!

Mr. BARTLEY. I think probably the most unfair advertising of cigarettes to me, and I don't mind saying it because it is not under our jurisdiction, that is the “TV Guide and all of the television programs listed in that magazine are full of cigarette advertising.

Mr. COLLINS. I didn't know that. In other words, the only thing that we have eliminated is just advertising on radio and television and any other facility can advertise, is that right, Van?

Mr. VAN DEERLIN. Yes, Mr. Collins, and the full Commission will be before the subcommittee next week, and I guess we can have at it on several fronts.

Mr. BARTLEY. I am sorry I won't be here next week, so here is his chance.

Mr. COLLINS. On this matter of what they run in the way of advertising, I just wonder whether sometimes the military services feel that they have to advertise so they can express their position. Some people said “CBS” in a program they had on the Pentagon presented a nonpartisan program in what I imagine they listed as a public service program.

When they take a public service program through the network broadcasting facilities, do they have a responsibility of presenting both sides?

Mr. BARTLEY. Yes. The fairness doctrine calls for not equal, but at least fair treatment of all sides of the controversial issues.

Mr. Collins. Well, for instance, with a network with tremendous facilities, would that in turn involve going to the Pentagon or military leadership and asking them to participate !

Mr. BARTLEY. The only time I know of that they are required to give prenotice of what they are saying is when a personal attack is involved, they do need to notify any person being attacked that they are going to be attacked and then giving them opportunity to rebut it.

Mr. COLLINS. Other than that, their program is OK?

Mr. BARTLEY. That is the only instance I know of where they are required to give prenotice.

Mr. Ray. I might amplify it by saying that the fairness doctrine applies to overall programing of a network or station. It is actually to a station. It does not-or two sides of the issue do not have to be given on the same program as long as reasonable opportunity is there for contrasting views in the overall programing of the station.

Mr. COLLINS. What about this public service and whether people have this situation? I was listening to television last week and the fellow got up and talked for a long time, inviting complaints and said, “We are renewing our license and would like for everybody that knows something to complain about it to us, to be sure to write and tell it."

If any of my colleagues would go on television and ask for complaints, we would get them all the time. What do we achieve by this as a public service function?

Mr. BARTLEY. Actually, it is to let the public know they do have a right to let the stations know what they are thinking and they can also let the Commission know.

Many of those announcements I have heard also solicit favorable comment. Strangely enough, mighty strange to some people, and this did not surprise me, but in the responses we get as a result of those, we get almost as many or more in many cases complimentary remarks about the station than complaints.

Mr. COLLINS. That is interesting.
Mr. Ray. Yes.
Mr. COLLINS. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. VAN DEERLIN. Mr. Tiernan.
Mr. TIERNAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Sir, isn't the Commission greatly concerned with the programing in prime time?

Mr. Ray. Sorry, I didn't catch it.

Mr. TIERNAN. Hasn't the Commission promulgated rules with regard to prime time programing?

Mr. BARTLEY. What we have proposed in rulemaking is—or in the rules is that only a certain amount of that may be originated by the networks.

Mr. TIERNAN. Well, have you supervised this advertising campaign that is being put on for the Army?

Mr. BARTLEY. We don't supervise any programs of any kind of any nature.

Mr. TIERNAN. Do you monitor it?
Mr. BARTLEY. Not programing as such.

Mr. TIERNAN. How can you be concerned in promulgating a rule with regard to prime time if you don't have supervision or control?

Mr. BARTLEY. That is largely an economic matter.

Mr. TIERNAN. Well, you are just concerned about economics of it and not concerned about what goes on prime time?

Mr. BARTLEY. The economics seem to be centralizing the program sources in fewer hands and with additional outlets it is our hope that additional program sources will develop.

Mr. TIERNAN. Well, sir, I assume you have had an opportunity to read the current resolution introduced by Mr. Van Deerlin?

Mr. BARTLEY. Yes.

Mr. TIERNAN. And you know it has to do with regard to the gram of expenditures of sums for 4 months of radio and television recruiting campaigns? And did any of the staff of FCC inquire of the military what the schedule of timing of those ads and commercials were

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Mr. BARTLEY. No, sir.
Mr. TIERNAN. They made no inquiry?
Mr. BARTLEY. That is correct.

Mr. TIERNAN. You don't think that the Commission should have or the staff should have looked into when these ads and commercials were going to be put on television and radio?

Mr. BARTLEY. Personally I don't think so.

Mr. TIERNAN. You are speaking for yourself and the Commission has not taken a position on it?

Mr. BARTLEY. No, I believe they have not had the specific question put to them.

Mr. TIERNAN. Yet you, as a member of the Commission, and the Commission as a body have encouraged broadcasters and people in the media to sponsor public service ads, haven't you?

Mr. BARTLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. TIERNAN. Yet, and generally on renewals—that is one of the factors the Commission considers in renewal of licenses, isn't it?

Mr. BARTLEY. What we consider, I believe, and I can stand corrected by Mr. Ray here also, who goes over the program forms, but what we consider is the performance versus the promises.

The only time—well when they file an application, they propose to carry a certain amount of public service announcements and that I would say is about the end of the ballgame. They lived up to that performance and then I say they are in clear.

Mr. TIERNAN. I see. Have you seen any of these commercials, recruiting commercials, for the service ?

Mr. BARTLEY. No, sir.
Mr. TIERNAN. You have not seen them on television?
Mr. BARTLEY. No, I have not.
Mr. TIERNAN. Do you watch television?
Mr. BARTLEY. Some.
Mr. TIERNAN. Some!
Mr. BARTLEY. I listen to radio more than I watch television.
Mr. TIERNAN. Have you heard any of the commercials on radio?
Mr. BARTLEY. No, sir.

Mr. TIERNAN. Do you think the staff might be able to obtain one of these commercials for you and the Commission to view!

Mr. BARTLEY. I think it would be easier to get it from the Department of Defense.

Mr. TIERNAN. Right; they are going to be shown here. Well, has there been any request by the military with regard to the time?

Mr. BARTLEY. No, sir.
Mr. TIERNAN. Free time?
Mr. BARTLEY. No, sir.
Mr. TIERNAN. Thank you. No further questions.
Mr. MACDONALD. Mr. Frey.
Mr. FREY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You point out for the recordkeeping you do on this for the unpaid and in the new section and can you give us any idea of how much total dollars of public funds have been paid, say, during the last year for this type of advertising?

Mr. BARTLEY. No, sir, we wouldn't have it.

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