Mr. ROONEY. Do you have a breakdown of that figure? Mr. NELSON. No. Mr. ROONEY. How did it get in this budget in that exact amount? Mr. NELSON. Some of the $1,600,000 will go for computer services for the whole program, including the research and development. A part of the $1,600,000 will go to get information collected by these other sources, these other statistical sources such as the Bureau of Public Roads, the Bureau of Census, the Corps of Engineers, the Interstate Commerce Commission, and so on. A very large part of the $1,510,000 will be transferred to these other agencies for these services. This will include both the preparation of the data which they already have, making it more usable for usthis means a restructuring of the data-and also it means collection of some new data which will fill in the gaps in the whole data structure. For example, we have very inadequate data about origins and destinations of traffic. Particularly that is true for origins and destinations within the metropolitan area. We know that people come to National Airport, but we don't know where they start from, whether it is Chevy Chase, whether it is Alexandria, or whether it is in the downtown area. Mr. ROONEY. You know, Professor, when my mind gets back to the question I asked, it occurs to me that this is all quite nebulous. I merely inquired how much other Government agencies were to get from this item? How did you arrive at the figure $1.6 million? Mr. NELSON. Well, sir; we don't really know yet what the cost is going to be. Mr. ROONEY. That would be a fair estimation of this $20 million. wouldn't it? Mr. NELSON. No, sir. We have much better knowledge of how the money is going to be spent in other areas than we do for the national transportation statistics program. This is an area where we have not been able to push forward with background study to the extent that we have with the research and development program and the demonstration program because we have had inadequate personnel. AMOUNTS TO PENNSYLVANIA AND NEW HAVEN RAILROADS Mr. ROONEY. In this $20 million budget, can you tell us one definite Government agency-other Government agency-college, university, or other such institution which would get a certain, definite amount? Mr. BOYD. No, sir. We can tell you how much the National Bureau of Standards Mr. ROONEY. That was a fairly good question of mine just a few questions ago, wasn't it? Mr. BOYD. As far as I am concerned they have all been good questions, Mr. Chairman. Mr. NELSON. We can say that the Pensylvania Railroad is going to get $5.4 million for the acquisition of cars. We can say that the New Haven Railroad is going to get $2 million for the acquisition of We can say that one of the carbuilders is going to get $500,000 for the development of Mr. ROONEY. You know, I wonder about this because, as I pointed out previously, this wasn't set forth in the general statement and it wasn't set forth in these justifications, was it? Mr. NELSON. Yes, sir. Mr. ROONEY. Specifically so? Mr. ROONEY. I don't think so. Mr. NELSON. Yes, sir; it is right here. Page 14. Mr. ROONEY. Does it say Pennylvania Railroad on that page or New Haven Railroad? Mr. NELSON. No, but it does say— demonstration, Washington-New York, design and procure electrically powered cars. Then in the text it says: Demonstrations on the Pennsylvania Railroad are planned. Mr. ROONEY. Doctor, you didn't at all say how many cars you were going to buy for the Pennsylvania Railroad, but you did tell us how many they were going to purchase. Mr. NELSON. We are going to buy 28. Mr. ROONEY. We have had to ask questions to learn this. These things weren't in your documents, were they? Mr. NELSON. Sir, the Pennsylvania Railroad is going to acquire a total Mr. ROONEY. Did you think it was good to come up here and get by without us having asked you what the Pennsylvania Railroad gets out of this? Mr. NELSON. No, sir; I think that is a very good question. Mr. ROONEY. Maybe if I were seated over there where you are, I would not think it was good. Mr. NELSON. And I think we are prepared to answer the question, sir. Mr. ROONEY. But the point is, if we hadn't asked the question, we wouldn't have known what the Pennsylvania was going to get out of it and what New Haven was going to get out of it; is that right? Look at Mr. Imhoff nodding his head down here. Mr. NELSON. Yes, sir; I have to agree, we did not indicate Mr. ROONEY. That was a fairly good surmise on my part, because I didn't see these justifications until we sat down here this afternoon. DESIGN OF RAILROAD CARS Mr. CEDERBERG. Is the design of the car to be used already determined? Mr. BOYD. We have specifications. I think we and the Pennsylvania have agreed. I am not sure. Mr. NELSON. We have specifications that have reached the point almost of final agreement with the Pennsylvania Railroad. Mr. BOYD. The major aspects. Mr. CEDERBERG. I wondered how you could determine the cost of the car before design is really complete. How many cars this amount of money will buy? Mr. NELSON. We can't definitely, but we have a pretty good approxi mation. Mr. CEDERBERG. You are giving us your best estimate? Mr. BOYD. It is in the vicinity of $370,000 or $400,00 per car. Mr. CEDERBERG. How many passengers? Mr. Boyn. There will be different configurations. Mr. NELSON. The cars will come in units of two. One with a snack bar will have 60; the others will have 80. DEMONSTRATION PROJECT Mr. CEDERBERG. Where are you going to conduct these tests? Mr. BOYD. Between New York and Washington on the Pennsylvania and the test track will be between Trenton-the high-speed trackMr. NELSON. The demonstrations will be between New York and Washington and between Boston and Providence. Mr. CEDERBERG. You are using the existing tracks for these cars? Mr. BoYD. Yes, sir. It will be operated by the Pennsylvania over the Pennsylvania rights-of-way. Mr. CEDERBERG. Is it your anticipation that when this fast rail line, say between Washington and New York comes in, it will go on existing track? Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir. Mr. CEDERBERG. How fast will they go? Mr. BOYD. 125 miles top speed. That will not be the average speed. Mr. CEDERBERG. What is the speed now? Mr. NELSON. Ninety-three miles per hour top speed. We will be able to cut the elapsed time down from about 3 hours 45 minutes for all but one of the Pennsylvania's schedules down to below 3 hours. Mr. BOYD. We are shooting for 2 hours and 45 minutes. Mr. NELSON. That is good, considering we are not making any changes in the roadbed. Mr. CEDERBERG. Is safety going to be a factor when you get involved with that extra speed? Mr. NELSON. There are no grade crossings north of the Delaware line. There are some south of that line, some of which are private, but we will have crossing gates and have that well protected. They go through those now at over 85 miles an hour. Mr. CEDERBERG. What is the total cost going to be when you get this line completely installed? Mr. NELSON. The total cost to the U.S. Government will be $9.6 million. This is a demonstration program which will run for approximately 2 years. Mr. CEDERBERG. How much of the whole authorization of your bill? It is more than that? Mr. BoYD. The bill is $90 million, of which $64 million will go into primarily hardware research. Mr. CEDERBERG. So what we are talking about is, a $90 million operation to save an hour's time Mr. BOYD. Oh, no. This is why the thing gets to be confusing. This demonstration is a part of a much larger picture, Mr. Cederberg, and the $64 million has no special application to the Northeast corridor. It has an application to the propulsion of trains, period. Mr. CEDERBERG. Nationwide. Mr. BOYD. Nationwide; yes, sir. It is going to have an impact all over the country. Of course, the thing we are talking about here is the movement of passengers, reducing the time it takes passengers to move, but the major impact of this thing probably will well be in the faster movement of freight. Now, the results of this research are going to mean, for example, that people in my home State will be able to pick oranges fresh off the trees and get them into New York overnight, whereas today they have to pick them slightly green. Mr. CEDERBERG. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. JAPANESE RAILWAYS Mr. ROONEY. Doctor, I assume you have ridden on the high-speed Japanese railroad, have you? Mr. NELSON. No, sir; I have not. Two representatives from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, while under contract with us, went over. I have not been able to get over. Mr. ROONEY. Would you tell us briefly why we couldn't obviate the alleged necessity of all this research and development and do what the Japanese have done with regard to their high-speed railroad? Mr. NELSON. If we established a system between Washington and Boston that would be comparable to the Japanese system, we would have to expend somewhere in the neighborhood of $22 to $3 billion. We would get a railroad with top speeds of approximately 150 miles an hour and probably average speeds between 100 to 110. This we think would be an extremely effective transportation facility for the immediate future, but if we made an investment of that size, it would be for some years to come, and because of the technological advances in other forms of transportation, such as highways and air transportation, we are uncertain as to the extent to which a rail system with maximum speeds of 150 miles an hour would be economic 10, 15, 20 years from now. Mr. ROONEY. Thank you, Mr. Secretary, and gentlemen. |