(f) Nevertheless, I believe the Nation will receive a return many times over from the investment to date because we know from observation that a good percentage of the trainees who stay with us are going to be receiving checks from employers rather than from public assistance officials.

(g) Furthermore, in the opinion of the dean of our school of education, our experiences with the center will lead to significant changes in our programs for training teachers and counselors, changes that we will share with the educational community and that will reduce the number of dropouts.

(h) Comparisons of costs per trainee at Job Corps centers with costs per student in other educational institutions are misleading. There are no other institutions made up solely of dropouts that operate around the clock and around the calendar. Any effort to freeze a cost per trainee figure on the basis of a few months operating experience could seriously undermine ability to achieve objectives of program. I believe that experimentation now will lead to a lower cost per trainee than would be the case if we attempt to arrive at a hard and fast figure now.

3. The first few weeks of our experience with Project Upward Bound makes it clear that we are going to be able to open up the doors to a college education for young men and women from economically deprived families in Portland who otherwise would have been unable to obtain a post high school education. 4. We have been very much impressed with the first two groups of VISTA trainees. They will render a service on the domestic front that will compare favorably with the service rendered to peoples of other nations by the Peace Corps.

5. The University of Oregon will be able to perform its total mission more effectively because of the opportunity which has been afforded us of working with you and your associates on one of the most significant programs ever undertaken by our Nation.

ARTHUR S. FLEMING.

Mr. DUNCAN. As I understand, only four boys were involved, but there were racial overtones in that fight.

Mr. WEEKS. There were four boys directly involved in the fight, and there were boys standing around cheering for their side.

POLICE JURISDICTION AT JOB CORPS CENTERS ON FEDERAL PROPERTY

Mr. DUNCAN. I had to leave when you were discussing Breckenridge, but one of the things that disturbed me in connection with the Tongue Point problem was that at that particular time out there, there was quite a conflict in the press, not discouraged at all, rather encouraged, I thought, over jurisdiction.

It occurs to me that you have jurisdictional questions on a lot of these bases, particularly military bases such as you have at Tongue Point and at Breckenridge. My office has suggested to you from time to time that these problems ought to be anticipated and there ought to be a clear line of responsibility as far as any policing or any protection is concerned.

I have one in my district at Fort Vannoy where they had a few fights within the last week, I understand, and four boys were dismissed or sent home.

I wonder if you have come face to face with this problem of who has the jurisdiction.

Dr. SINGLETARY. There is a statement in the hands of all those concerned telling them the steps to take and they are to use the local law enforcement in the areas. In some places there is a special kind of program.

For example, at Camp Gary in Texas we are in the difficult position of not being able to call upon the Governor of Texas to provide the backup force of his State and highway patrol if we needed them there.

Mr. DUNCAN. Can we do that in Oregon? The Attorney General issued an opinion the State police had no jurisdiction at all on Tongue Point. I wonder about Fort Vannoy, too, because this is Federal property.

Mr. BAKER. We got from the Office of the General Counsel, Department of Justice, a memorandum opinion. In fact, GSA has the authority in the military bases to permit us when we take over one of these installations to make arrangements with State or local police agencies to provide the necessary police protection. The problem to date has been to get the local, State, or municipal police to undertake this task.

I think we have the problem of Texas. I have not addressed myself to the State of Oregon. In each case I believe there has been an opinion. I am not sure that the opinion has not been in practice more in the perception of practical problems rather than legal requirements.

In any event, we are addressing ourselves to the problem and attempting to make arrangements. They will be varied. In some State, in Breckenridge, we have already an informal arrangement with the State police. I am not sure what the details are.

Dr. SINGLETARY. We are negotiating with every single center. It varies from State to State.

Mr. DUNCAN. Of course, and from locality to locality. In some jurisdictions the State jurisdiction is paramount and in some the Federal jurisdiction is not only paramount but exclusive. I understood this is the situation presented in Tongue Point. I would not have thought that this situation would have continued to prevail this long without your addressing yourself to it.

We certainly made every effort in our office, though Tongue Point is not in my district, to call attention to it.

Dr. SINGLETARY. We settled the problem in Texas. We settled the problem at Atterbury. I thought the problem was settled at Tongue Point.

Mr. SHRIVER. I think it is.

You say it is not settled at Tongue Point? thought it was.

Perhaps it is not. I

Mr. DUNCAN. I am not aware if it has been. The Attorney General issued an opinion that the State police had no business there and could not go there.

Furthermore the Governor made a demand on your office to supply the police protection. There were problems about whether or not the National Guard could get in there.

I would have thought in the first instance that part of the contract with the University of Oregon would have included the security provision.

Dr. SINGLETARY. It does.

Mr. DUNCAN. The responsibility would have been theirs assuming the legal basis exists for contracting with the State police and their total contract sum should include protection.

Mr. SHRIVER. That is exactly as it was written.

Mr. DUNCAN. If convenient I would like to direct your attention once again to Oregon. I think Fort Vannoy is an entirely different situation. We have Bureau of Land Management land there. I am not sure who has the jurisdiction on that particular parcel where those camp buildings exist. I would like to know that. I want to solve this before it arises again.

Mr. SHRIVER. Let me say that President Fleming intervened in that situation, as you well know.

Mr. DUNCAN. So did Governor Hatfield.

(Discussion held off the record.)

Dr. SINGLETARY. Right now President Fleming should be able to handle not only his routine job but anything comparable to what happened there before.

Mr. DUNCAN. Hopefully it will not arise again. If so, we should be prepared to meet it without another rash of headlines as we had before.

I have nothing further.

Mr. FOGARTY. We ran longer than we thought we would this morning.

We shall recess now and come back at quarter of 2.

AFTERNOON SESSION

Mr. FOGARTY. The committee will come to order.

CONTRACTS ISSUED BY OEO

The list of contracts, Mr. Shriver, you furnished at our request totals over $100 million.

DEVELOPMENT OF EDUCATIONAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTS

I notice a few contracts having to do with psychology, which isn't a very popular word in many areas, especially on the floor of the House in general debate on something like this. The very first onedevelop educational and psychological tests. What is involved in these and why are these necessary?

Mr. SHRIVER. I would think that the educational and psychological tests-I don't know the exact contract-would have to do with the selection of people to serve in the Job Corps. Is that right, Dr. Singletary?

Ďr. SINGLETARY. That is right. The point we made before Senator Ervin's committee, Mr. Chairman, is that the testing we use in the Job Corps is not to keep kids out of this program but to decide at what level to place them. They are not exclusive instruments at all.

Mr. SHRIVER. Did you testify on the House side or just before Senator Ervin's committee?

Dr. SINGLETARY. Just the Senator's committee.

Mr. FOGARTY. Why are they necessary?

Dr. SINGLETARY. Frequently to decide whether a boy should go to an urban center or to a conservation center, depending on the level of ability, and so forth.

Mr. FLOOD. What kind of a yardstick do you use? Are you a psychologist?

Dr. SINGLETARY. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. FLOOD. Are you a professor?

Dr. SINGLETARY. I was a professor of history.

Mr. FLOOD. What yardstick did you apply on this? How do you know whether applicant A should go to a conservation center or an urban center?

Dr. SINGLETARY. The level of his reading ability, his mathematical skill, his general comprehension.

RECRUITMENT AND SCREENING OF JOB CORPS APPLICANTS

Mr. FOGARTY. There are several contracts in connection with recruiting and screening of Job Corps applicants. Why couldn't this be done by your own employees?

Dr. SINGLETARY. One of our problems from the very beginning was how to mount a nationwide screening capability in order to bring youngsters from all over the United States into this program from the very first. We were never allowed in the original personnel positions, to do this, and the argument, as I recall from heading the history of the legislation, was that this capability already existed in this country and we should use this rather than create a duplicating one.

Mr. FOGARTY. Does it cost more this way or to hire people to do it? Dr. SINGLETARY. I think it costs considerably less to do it this way, Mr. Chairman. The great bulk of this is done by the Employment Service. The actual cost per screened enrollee is averaging out at about $80.

CONTRACTING WITH BUSINESS TO CARRY OUT ANTIPOVERTY CAMPAIGN

Mr. FLOOD. Is there anything, Mr. Shriver, inherently wrong, is there anything immoral, is there anything unethical, is there anything within the realm of questionable judgment in contracting with the so-called big business firms, whoever they are, to run these camps simply because they are big business and simply because they do make a profit? Is it immoral in this kind of an operation, under this law, with the purpose in mind of what we all are trying to do, for company A to make a profit with this sort of thing?

Mr. SHRIVER. Not in my judgment. Not at all. In fact, I think if a resource existed in this Nation that can do the job effectively and we fail to utilize it, then we would be culpable.

EXTENT TO WHICH EMPLOYMENT SERVICE IS USED

Mr. FOGARTY. You are not using the Employment Service at a 90percent level, or something like that, as you indicated to me in your answer, are you?

Dr. SINGLETARY. I believe I said the bulk.

Mr. FOGARTY. I put my own interpretation on what the word "bulk" means. Now you give your interpretation of "bulk."

Dr. SINGLETARY. Bulk in this case to me means majority. We have more Job Corps men screened by the Employment Service than any other agency.

Mr. FOGARTY. Do these tables that you have given to the committee show that?

Mr. FOGELMAN. This is a list just of contracts. Therefore, the information having to do with the interagency transfer of funds would not be reflected.

Mr. FOGARTY. I see. Do you have figures at hand to show the comparison?

Dr. SINGLETARY. Out of the 38,000 calls last year that were issued for male enrollees about 36,000 have gone to the Employment Service.

MANAGEMENT OF CENTERS BY UNIVERSITIES AND BY BUSINESSES

COMPARED

Mr. FLOOD. I have the impression your universities are laying an egg in running these camps, that these ought to be by the private business concerns, the bad, big business people. Is this true?

Dr. SINGLETARY. As a matter of fact, yes.

Mr. FLOOD. Why do you say that?

Dr. SINGLETARY. As I tried to make the point earlier, universities are different kinds of organizations, trying to do different kind of things, and what they do does not necessarily lend itself to this kind of enterprise.

Mr. FLOOD. One of many things you are finding out.

Dr. SINGLETARY. I can report to you on the university campus you don't have the highly centralized decisionmaking process that Litton Industries has, for example. I think-and I have said this to President Fleming-one of the things that troubles me is that the university decisionmaking process is such that the response time from the time you locate a problem and the time you get it solved is sometimes just too long.

Mr. FLOOD. It is like walking Niagara Falls on a rope-it is a good idea if it works.

Dr. SINGLETARY. Yes, sir.

REIMBURSEMENT OF EMPLOYMENT SERVICES

Mr. FOGARTY. Do you reimburse the Employment Service for these services?

Mr. SHRIVER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FOGARTY. Do you have an overall amount?

Mr. SHRIVER. We pay it out in screening, $2.8 million.

Mr. FLOOD. How do you use that? What do they do? I am in the city of and on South Main Street there is an employment office. What do they do in connection with your program or any phase of your program?

Dr. SINGLETARY. Let us assume we are opening a camp at such location and we have a hundred slots to fill, that is, a hundred vacancies that we can now order up enrollees for. We issue a call around to Employment Service offices. Five different offices get an order, let us say, to send up a number of enrollees. They screen them from the list of those who have applied from that community, they bring them in, and begin the interviewing process, which involves checking their school records.

53-596-65--19