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Mr. Bush. Well, the new copying machines, according to the reporting services, are about to put them out of business. They used to sell x number of copies, and they have told us that all they ever want to make is 5 percent gross on their business and have offered to open their books to any audit that we would want to make, if there was any kind of a way we could write a contract that would assure them of that. But the parties lately have been getting together and one party would buy a copy and then they would just take them back and reproduce them for a nominal sum and sell them to other parties.

They bid this time 50 cents per page of transcript for the field hearings and still are willing to make no charge for those which we hold in Washington. That compares to 85 cents for the field hearings and 75 cents they charge everybody but the Government. Ours is 50 cents and zero against 85 and 75.

We have compared the charges with other agencies of Government and even here on the Hill I understand they get $1.40 a page if they are allowed to sell copies and $1.65 if they aren't.

Mr. Evins. How long have the reporters been giving you the free service ?

Mr. Bush. I think it was in 1956. It was before the advent of these modern copying machines.

Mr. Evins. Haven't you already let your contract for the next year! Is the bidding time closed for your reporting service?

Mr. Bush. Yes, we have.

In prior years we have asked, knowing that at any time we might have no bid at all, as in 1964, or we might have a bid as in 1965, where we would have to pay and we have put in a figure in the budget request tentative that if we had to use it we would have it in there and each time—we had a figure in the budget in case we would have to come to this position and each time it was stricken from the budgetI think probably rightly so. They said “If you ever come to the point where you have to have it, at that time we will talk to you."

Mr. Evins. Out of $26,915,000 budget, couldn't you absorb this? We just got the regular budget worked out with the Senate, the President just signed the new bill into law and you ought to absorb this amount until

your regular budget. Mr. SCHMID. The actual amount of money we have this year will give us less average employment than we have had in previous years. Now we have allocated our money for fiscal year 1966. We have carved down our travel money to a bare minimum. We have taken our supplies down to a bare minimum; we have taken our equipment down to a bare minimum. We have it right down to a bare minimum.

If we have to absorb this $185,000, which is an entirely unexpected item which was not in the budget

Mr. Evins. We are not saying absorb it completely right now, but couldn't you get by until you present your regular budget?

Mr. SCHMID. No, because we are talking about between now and next June 30. As a matter of fact, we are already absorbing some, Mr. Chairman, because we think it is going to cost us more than $185,000 just to pay this 50 cents for each page of transcript based upon our experience. We have carved it down to $185,000.

Mr. EVINS. We saw your figures here of the number of hearings conducted outside Washington, 2,689 in 1963 and estimated 2,418, which is a lesser number, in 1966.

Pages of transcript, 310,000. Now, these are all outside the District of Columbia ? Mr. SCHMID. That is correct, but you will also notice the number of pages per hearing increased. This is primarily because of the merger cases which sometimes run 10,000 pages of transcript. So, although we have taken our own steps, procedural steps to reduce the total number of hearings, we are trying to schedule our hearings so we have as many as we possibly can in Washington, D.C. The fact remains, although we have fewer hearings

Mr. EVINS. You are multiplying 370,000 by 50 cents. That is where you get your $185,000.

Mr. SCHMID. That is right. But that is after taking into consideration that, through changing our proceedings we are trying to eliminate as many oral hearings as we possibly can, but that is offset by the fact that we have had an average increase over the past 3 years of about 15 percent in our total overall cases.

Mr. Evins. You are trying to eliminate your oral hearings. Why would you do that? Why couldn't you handle a lot of these in an informal way?

Mr. SCHMID. You can't because of the Administrative Procedures Act. We have devised procedures to the extent we can under the law to minimize the total number of oral hearings. We have gone about as far as we can go on that. As a matter of fact, if we hadn't taken those steps together with some of our reorganization plans made more manpower available to handle these cases, we would be in even more trouble.

Mr. Evins. The supplementary or deficiency process is for real emergencies. You insist that this is a real emergency down at the ICC!

Mr. Bush. Yes, we certainly do, Mr. Chairman. As nearly as I can tell from my conversations with Mr. Schmid and Mr. Ryan, the only place that we could possibly find this unexpected sum would be in reducing personnel and I honestly believe that we should not be asked to try to do it any further than we have because I think that no portion of our economy is in more direct ratio to the gross national product or the total economy than is transportation and as it has risen, so have the problems of transportation.

Our caseload, as we have told you on other occasions, has gone up to about 10,000 a year of formal cases plus heaven knows how many thousands of less important matters. Throughout the entire regulatory area of the country in transportation, as the volume of transportation increases, so do the problems of the ICC increase. We don't feel we are doing an adequate job in our policing of safety on the highways, which is of extreme interest to the Congress and to the administration now, and other areas. As I say, when your caseload goes up to 10,000 a year, formal cases,

, I just don't see how we can get it cut out of personnel. Mr. EVINS. Are there any questions by any of the members?

Mr. BOLAND. I think you have been fortunate in getting these copies for nothing over the past 9 years. I might also say I would disagree with the established policy of the Commission with respect to making copies of transcripts which are obtained.

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I can't understand how you ever established this policy. Why couldn't the company buy the transcript and make a copy of it! Why would you make a policy against this?

Mr. Schmid. The company isn't
Mr. Boland. It is your policy?
Mr. Evins. Put out a regulation.

Mr. BOLAND, I don't know how the Commission would take the steps to discourage the practice of a purchaser making copies.

Mr. Bush. I had made a check here to ask if we might make a correction in the interpretation of this statement. As it now reads, it says, “Many purchasers have reduced their purchases to one copy and have made additional copies on these machines." And that “we are opposed to that."

It is giving a slightly wrong impression. It is perfectly proper for a company to buy one and make all the copies they want, but what this statement should have said-and I would like to see it corrected to read properly—the practice is of the parties getting together and one party buying the copy and then selling them to the others. We have not made that clear.

Mr. Evins. Mr. Shipley, have you any questions?
Mr. SHIPLEY. No questions.
Mr. EVINS. Mr. Minshall ?
Mr. MINSHALL. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Evins. My impression on this is that it is a small item in the big budget of the ICC and that you could have waited on this until you submit your regular budget in January. I don't see the emergency nature of it like you gentlemen do. You always make a good case for transportation.

Your reporter is going to continue to serve you. He has served you over many years and you are going to settle accounts satisfactorily. They are not going to stop reporting your hearings.

Mr. Schmid. Mr. Chairman, we will not be able to pay this reporting company out of moneys appropriated next year. We have to pay for it out of moneys appropriated this year and the only way we can do this quite frankly, I just made a fast calculation here we are going to have to reduce our staff by 20 people. Our average salary is $9,500—we will have to immediately reduce our staff by 20 people if we have to pay the reporting company to cover this contract this year.

Mr. Evins. You haven't had any hearings on this big railroad merger case yet?

Mr. SCHMID. No.
Mr. MINSHALL. Twenty people out of how large a staff?
Mr. SCHMID. 2,400.

Mr. Bush. I would add this, too, that as this workload has increased so tremendously over, we will say

the
past

7 to 8 years, the total number of people that the ICC employs in the whole United States has only increased by 200. I doubt there are very many Government agencies

Mr. Evins. It is a great agency. It is the pioneer regulatory agency. It is one used as a model. You do a great work and it is nice to have you before us and we thank you very much.

We will take the matter under consideration. We thank you very much for coming.

Mr. Bush. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I hope everything works out well.

TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 7, 1965.

GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION

WITNESSES

ROBERT T. GRIFFIN, ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR
WILLIAM P. TURPIN, ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR FINANCE

AND ADMINISTRATION
EDMUND D. DWYER, DIRECTOR, DATA PROCESSING COORDINATION

STAFF WILLIAM A. BUTTS, DIRECTOR, BUDGET DIVISION WILLIAM A. SCHMIDT, ACTING COMMISSIONER, PUBLIC BUILD

INGS SERVICE JOHN P. MOHR, ASSISTANT TO THE DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU

OF INVESTIGATION JOSEPH J. CASPER, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF

INVESTIGATION, TRAINING DIVISION H. A. ABERSFELLER, COMMISSIONER, FEDERAL SUPPLY SERVICE

Mr. Evins. We have with us our friends from the General Services Administration.

Mr. Administrator, we have looked over your justification. You have three items. You ask for $14,763,000 to begin construction of a Federal Bureau of Investigation Academy and then you want $901,000 for sites and expenses for this project. You also have two other programs for which you request funds as indicated in House Document 278.

GENERAL STATEMENT

You have a brief statement which we shall insert in the record. (The statement follows:)

STATEMENT OF THE ADMINISTRATOR Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, we are requesting supplemental funds for 1966 under three items for General Services Administration.

1. Design and construction money for a new FBI Academy building at Quantico, Va.;

2. Funds to permit GSA to adequately carry out its new responsibilities dealing with Government-wide automatic data processing; and

3. Increased funds for supply support to Department of Defense that is related to the buildup in southeast Asia. The appropriation for the new FBI Academy will permit an early start on this much needed facility. Current facilities for the Academy at Quantico are wholly inadequate and the new project is one of high priority.

The new item for automatic data processing coordination is essential to permit GSA to move forward in operation of computer sharing exchanges and guides for Government-wide management techniques, procurement, and utilization. The Government's annual ADP bill now totals some $3 billion. The request in this supplemental will afford a good start for cost reduction efforts in this field.

The swift buildup of military forces for southeast Asia has caused a marked and immediate increase in demands on GSA's Federal Supply Service. Large orders for items supplied by GSA are taking place and we must be in a position to handle the sharp addition to our workload. The immediate impact on stores stock volumes for this fiscal year is in the magnitude of $41 million together with an increase of almost $11 million in nonstores items. We are requesting $3.5 million to handle these unexpected and unfunded increases in business.

FBI ACADEMY

Mr. Evins. Mr. Reporter, we will insert pages 1 through 4 on the FBI Academy

(The pages follow :)

CONSTRUCTION, PUBLIC BUILDINGS PROJECTS

APPROPRIATION LANGUAGE

"For an additional amount for 'Construction, public buildings projects,' for construction of a Federal Bureau of Investigation Academy, Quantico, Virginia, $14,763,000, to remain available until expended : Provided, That the foregoing limit of cost may be exceeded to the estent that savings are effected in other projects, but by not to exceed 10 per centum.

SITES AND EXPENSES, PUBLIC BUILDINGS PROJECTS

APPROPRIATION LANGUAGE

“For an additional amount for ‘Sites and expenses, public buildings projects,' $901,000, to remain available until expended.”

GENERAL STATEMENT

“These proposed supplemental appropriations are requested to finance the design and construction of a new FBI Academy building at Quantico, Va., to provide for the training of FBI agents and for the expansion of the FBI National Academy which trains State, local, and other law enforcement officers.” (Quoted from House document.)

JUSTIFICATION The estimate contemplates the construction of a Federal facility to accommodate both the FBI Academy for the training of FBI agents and the FBI National Academy for the training of police officers. The facility will be located on a site of approximately 50 acres at the U.S. Marine Corps Base at Quantico, Va., which the Department of the Navy will make available for the purpose.

The proposed new academy will provide facilities which include classrooms, conference rooms, auditorium, specialized training rooms, library, gymnasium, training pool, locker rooms, office space for Academy administration and staff, and 2-man study and sleeping rooms for 700 students. The facility will also include dining and living areas, equipment shops and storage areas, laundry room, indoor ranges, meditation chapel, and necessary maintenance and utility areas.

The site will provide sufficient space for a campus-type setting for the Academy building in addition to providing space for athletic and drill fields, garage and shop building for Academy vehicles, powerplant for heating, air conditioning, emergency power units, roadways, and crime scene training area. To provide the necessary security to the area the facility will be bounded with a perimeter fence. A paved parking area will be provided for approximately 500 vehicles for instructors, students, and visitors.

In accordance with Office of Civil Defense "Technical Requirements for Fallout Shelters" issued August 1964, the estimate includes $38,000 for fallout protection in the building.

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