connection. Why is it necessary to expend additional funds for this purpose?

Mr. MCCARTER. That is our nonoperating revenue, which is extremely important, and we want to investigate even further what kind of nonoperating revenue we have, whether we have these concessions, the advertising, all of that activity.

Mr. DENTON. Doesn't the Ely report cover that?

Mr. HERMAN. Mr. Chairman, the Ely report covered it in general, and told us what type of facility we might plan for, what type of revenue we might expect. This will be a detailed station-by-station analysis, what type of concession, the actual details so we can plan our stations.

Mr. DENTON. Please explain your request for "an integrated budget accounting project.'

Mr. TOMEY. Again, sir, the total cost of this system, $431 million, extended over a period of 7 years suggests the need for a very comprehensive and accurate cost accounting system.

Mr. DENTON. Won't the Budget Bureau and GAO help you on that?

Mr. TOMEY. Yes, indeed, and the purpose of this study will be to pull together from the Bureau of the Budget, the General Accounting Office, and the Treasury Department

Mr. DENTON. This is a coordinator?

Mr. TOMEY. The amount of the contract suggests it is to tie in the essential elements to be incorporated in the integrated budget accounting system.

PERSONNEL RECRUITMENT SCHEDULE

Mr. DENTON. Out of a total of 27 new positions, you have computed a lapse of only 8 man-years for $93,097. These are high level positions requiring special skills. Aren't you rather optimistic in expecting to have them all filled by about the middle of October?

Mr. MCCARTER. Yes. And I will be frank with you, we might not have them filled when we come back before you again. That is one thing I am going to be extremely careful about, the kind of people we hire and their qualifications.

Mr. DENTON. Mr. Kirwan.

Mr. KIRWAN. I would like to commend Mr. McCarter and his staff for their very able presentation of the transit plan here this morning. This will be a most difficult undertaking. However, I am confident, Mr. McCarter, that you have the ability and experience to see it through to a successful completion. We are very fortunate in having you as the Administrator and I know you will have the full cooperation of this subcommittee.

Mr. MCCARTER. Thank you Mr. Kirwan, we will do our best.
Mr. DENTON. Mrs. Hansen.

POLICING OF PARKING FACILITIES

Mrs. HANSEN. I have one question. I want to know what you are going to do about policing your parking areas.

Mr. MCCARTER. We haven't completed all of the details as yet. Mrs. HANSEN. That is in the plans?

Mr. MCCARTER. Oh, yes.

Mrs. HANSEN. In the operating costs?

Mr. MCCARTER. Yes.

Mr. MALONE. I might say we have undertaken to present for the record something on public safety which I believe will cover this. Mrs. HANSEN. I appreciate that.

PENTAGON STATION BUS SERVICE

I want to ask you about the bus to the Pentagon station. I think as you realize, in the suburban area a majority of these people are not addicted to using buses. Have studies been done to show that people will use buses to go to the Pentagon station?

Mr. MCCARTER. It has been done in other cities-Chicago.

Mrs. HANSEN. But these Virginia suburbs, I have lived in them, and I have never seen anybody ride a bus if they could possibly avoid it.

Mr. MCCARTER. We will have to improve the traveltimes before they will do it, yes.

FREEWAY PLANNING

Mrs. HANSEN. Are you working on the freeway planning? Is the Transportation Agency constantly coordinating and working with you? I note you are in two instances, but in the future, are you working with the two highway administrative agencies in the adjoining States as well as the District so that freeway planning and transit planning are developed with a coordinated look at total transportation?

Mr. MCCARTER. Personally, I am working right now with General Duke and the Highway Department on the possibility of joint use of freeways, with transit in the median strip and so forth.

Mrs. HANSEN. I don't mean that exactly. I mean on location and the related aspects of where a freeway is the highest possible potential and where transit will coordinate with it, and where your intersections are going to come in the future as you expand, because I think a great deal of money can be saved in future planning.

Mr. MCCARTER. I agree with you and we are certainly trying to do this.

Mr. MALONE. May I add to that? On July 1 of this year there was created what is termed a continuous comprehensive highway planning process by the highway agencies of the region, which involves an areawide transportation planning board. NCTA is a nonvoting member of this board and will work with that process. This involves a total look at the transportation picture in the region.

ULTIMATE NEED OF LARGER SYSTEM

Mrs. HANSEN. A question has been asked about the short system versus the long system, and I think I raised the question last spring and the spring before. Is it not true that even though you are building the short system now, it is probably that part of the system which would be constructed anyway at this period of time looking toward the expansion in the future of the total system?

Mr. MCCARTER. That is the reason I call it the basic system.

Mrs. HANSEN. That is right. I wanted to emphasize it in the record, because I think you are probably well aware that the largest potential will develop from the total system.

Mr. MCCARTER. That is absolutely correct.

Mrs. HANSEN. But if people understand this is the basic system and it is not necessarily a "bobtail" system, but a basic planMr. MCCARTER. That is an important point to emphasize.

COMPARISON OF CONSTRUCTION COSTS

Mrs. HANSEN. Isn't it true also the San Francisco relationship of cost to their estimates is reasonably accurate due to the fact it is the most recent transit system?

Mr. MCCARTER. That is correct.

Mrs. HANSEN. And any of their figures are fairly reliable as related to total costs?

Mr. MCCARTER. Yes. And we have a very close relationship with them.

POSSIBLE EFFECT OF HOME RULE ON DISTRICT RESPONSIBILITIES

Mrs. HANSEN. On the question of after home rule becomes a fact, there is no possibility then for the District of Columbia to negate any part of its responsibility in any way, is there?

Mr. MCCARTER. I am told that not only by my own General Counsel but by other lawyers.

Mrs. HANSEN. They can't possibly negate?

Mr. MCCARTER. That is my understanding.

Mrs. HANSEN. On the taxing problem, since the District of Columbia is a partial owner in the beginning, how would it be possible to tax the Government for this?

Mr. MCCARTER. I wouldn't think they would tax themselves.
Mrs. HANSEN. I think this should be clear on the record.

Mr. MCCARTER. Yes.

Mrs. HANSEN. In any event, the District would have to assign any evaluation of such a system to a proper regulatory body, which in most States sets any tax base for a State.

Mr. MCCARTER. I am more familiar with situations where the transit system is tax free.

I would prefer to keep it that way.

Mrs. HANSEN. This is important to have in the record here this should be a tax-free system and should not be part of the tax responsibility of the Federal Government, nor should operation of the District be based on any part of an assessment of this system.

I think that is all.

Mr. DENTON. Mr. Marsh.

Mr. MARSH. Mr. Chairman; I certainly welcome your appearance before the committee, Mr. McCarter.

ground and expertise to this matter.

You bring a broad back

Mr. MCCARTER. I didn't come willingly but I appreciate the opportunity to serve.

NEED FOR INDEPENDENT TRAFFIC SURVEY

Mr. MARSH. Isn't it basically correct your independent traffic and use surveys relate to the 98-mile system rather than the basic system?

Mr. MCCARTER. They have been corrected to this system but we are asking for funds in this request to do a further analysis under the proposed system.

Mr. MARSH. To obtain the necessary independent studies?

Mr. MCCARTER. That is right.

Mr. MARSH. So the projections of use you are now using are those principally prepared by members of your staff based on the 98-mile surveys?

Mr. MCCARTER. And brought up to date, yes.

Mr. MARSH. But, in order to comply with the requirements of bond issues and related matters, you want to have the independent surveys to substantiate your own projections on revenues and operating costs?

Mr. MCCARTER. That is exactly right, yes.

Mr. MARSH. Consequently, based on your own studies, you are convinced these independent surveys will support the findings of your own staff on the operating costs and construction costs? Mr. MCCARTER. I am reasonably confident, yes.

Mr. MARSH. In the event-and we hope this is not the case-in the event these independent surveys would not substantiate the findings of your staff, what do you intend to do?

Mr. MCCARTER. First, we would come back and tell you about it, and then we would have to see what we had to do about it. As one possibility-it might mean the fare structure would have to be raised. Mr. MARSH. Or perhaps the system might need some redesigning? Mr. MCCARTER. Yes.

Mr. MARSH. But in all events, if the independent surveys did not substantiate your own findings, you would report back to the Congress?

Mr. MCCARTER. We would report back to the Congress and ask for appropriate instructions.

Mr. MARSH. It might be desirable, then, if the 98-mile system as opposed to just the basic system could be contemplated?

Mr. MCCARTER. That would take a much more comprehensive study. Such a study could be made by the compact organization.

RESTRICTION OF VEHICLES IN DOWNTOWN AREA

Mr. MARSH. Isn't it quite possible in order to encourage the use of the system there might be certain regulations or restrictions that could be imposed on people bringing their vehicles into the District of Columbia in order to force them on to the subway system? Has that been contemplated?

Mr. MCCARTER. That has not been contemplated by NCTA. The problem relates, generally, to the amount of parking that is available in the central area. I would assume if it is found the people would be using rapid transit some of the present parking facilities might be used for a higher use than they are now. But I have never known of a case where there have been actual restrictions upon people driving into an area other than the fact there are no parking spaces.

Mr. MARSH. The point I am making is that many of the individuals who travel to and from the city are employed by the Federal agencies. Has it been considered that possible administrative regulations might be imposed that would curtail the use of these individuals bringing automobiles into the District of Columbia?

Mr. MCCARTER. I haven't considered it.

USE OF EXISTING RAIL SYSTEM FOR COMMUTERS

Mr. MARSH. Is an effort being made to tie into the existing parking system or deembarkation system the use of existing rail facilities that come into the District of Columbia?

Mr. MCCARTER. We have rescheduled the particular sections of the system to go into final design and we are reexamining the configuration of the system at Union Station. I would like to have the downtown distributor system first and I would hope that that would encourage commuter railroads to give better service.

Mrs. HANSEN. Mr. McCarter, there is nothing harder to do right now than to just buy a ticket to go any place in the United States at a railroad station. They could care less about passengers, even riding

1 mile.

Mr. MCCARTER. I think times might change.

Mr. MARSH. I am glad to learn of your attitude in that regard.

Mr. MCCARTER. I would hope the commuter railroads might follow the Chicago commuter railroads where they do a good job, and I think they can do a good job here. I hope the philosopny of the Federal Government on the high speed line will expand to the commuter railroads.

Mr. MARSH. I want to commend you for that particular approach. The studies you have made relate to the 98-mile system and were made about 1962?

Mr. MCCARTER. Yes.

INCREASE IN VISITORS TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY

Mr. MARSH. There have been not only changes in traffic patterns and additional construction of highways, but I direct your attention to the increased visitation at the Arlington National Cemetery. One of the reasons for this is the tragic assassination of the late President. There are figures that point out a tremendous increase in visitations to the Arlington National Cemetery. Coupled with this will be the construction of memorial facilities at the grave site. Have you contemplated a way station between Pentagon City and Rosslyn for deembarkation and embarkation of tourist traffic at Arlington National Cemetery?

Mr. QUENSTEDT. We have not proposed any such station, Mr. Marsh. In the sense of building, it would be open country out there and it would be relatively easy to add a station near that location if the demand should make it worthwhile.

Mr. MCCARTER. I would like to say with respect to people who come to Washington-and this is a personal feeling of mine we ought to make it attractive for visitors to use the rapid transit system to get around Washington. I am one of the few people in the transit industry who still believes in what they call a daily or off-peak pass, or something of that nature.