Mr. EVINS. We want the States to assume more and more of their responsibilities. We don't want the Federal Government to have to do it all.

Mr. DURKEE. That is right. One of the reasons we put our people in the field more and more is so that we can work directly with the States and localities to define and have them assume these responsibilities.

GS GRADES IN OFFICE OF CIVIL DEFENSE

Mr. EVINS. We have a table here that has been provided to the committee showing you increased from 41 to 64 the number of GS-11 positions and 51 to 70 the number of GS-4 positions. There has been a little shifting in the higher grades.

Mr. DURKEE. There has been a shifting of 30 percent; that is a reduction of 30 percent in jobs of GS-13 and above.

Mr. EVINS. Mr. Reporter, we shall insert this table in the record. (The table follows:)

Office of Civil Defense-Comparison of civilian grade structure

Mr. EVINS. How do you propose to make these transfers? You are not asking for any change in the amount of funds?

Mr. DURKEE. No, sir.

Mr. EVINS. You want shifting of funds appropriated to you?

Mr. DURKEE. That is correct.

Mr. EVINS. Which programs are affected?

Mr. DURKEE. I have a schedule of the way the allocation of the operation and maintenance funds would be revised with those changes. In general, what I have done is to take some money from emergency operating centers and survival supplies, equipment and training accounts of financial assistance to States program and also have taken some money from the broadcast station protection program. This is the program we referred to earlier this year, to provide fallout protection for the operating personnel of broadcast stations to make sure they can operate under fallout conditions in the event of a nuclear attack.

Those are the primary sources for reprograming. I can include a chart for the record.

METHOD OF ARRIVING AT REDUCTIONS REQUIRED

Mr. BOLAND. How did you arrive at this distribution? This information you sent to Congress, and you mentioned all the areas in which congressional interests, of course, would be high.

How did you arrive at these figures? How do you know you are zoing to separate this many people in these areas because of this limiration? When did you start looking over this to determine how many people had to go? What is the total number of people that are going to be reduced by this limitation?

Mr. DURKEE. You can look at it in various ways.

On the first of July we had 982 people on board. We did not hire any people up to the authorized ceiling of a thousand from that time on. This is at a time when the House had approved a limitation of 700, the Senate approved a limitation of 900 and the final compromise limitation of 800 wasn't accomplished until August 4.

The first thing we did was not to hire anybody during that period at all. Then after we knew what the limitation was finally going to be on the assumption the President would sign the bill, we reorganized our agency and worked out the number of people who would have to be released.

On August 30 we issued termination notices for 164 people. This reduces us on the effective date of these notices, November 1, to an onboard strength of approximately 775. By taking this action, we made certain that we will get down to the 800 ceiling which was authorized by the Congress.

TURNOVER RATES FOR OFFICE OF CIVIL DEFENSE

Mr. BOLAND. What is the annual turnover in the Office of Civil Defense?

Mr. DURKEE. Our turnover has been relatively low, about 10 to 15 percent and mostly in clerical grades as you might expect.

CLOSING OF CIVIL DEFENSE TRAINING CENTERS

Mr. BOLAND. What difference does it make if the training centers at Brooklyn and Alameda are closed amounting to a reduction in 33 positions?

Why can't all this be concentrated at Battle Creek, as you are now going to do? Why do you need these two areas in Alameda and Brooklyn? Is it because of geographical considerations?

Mr. ĎURKEE. Largely because of geographical considerations.

Mr. BOLAND. How many went to Alameda in fiscal 1965 and how many to Brooklyn?

Mr. DURKEE. We have trained about 7,000 in the three schools in the last 2 years. I would say the breakdown between the three schools is that about 60 percent of the training is in the two schools located on the two coasts. It is equally divided between those with perhaps a few more in the East because of the more heavily populated areas. Mr. BOLAND. About 2,000 in each of the schools?

Mr. DURKEE. I would think so.

Mr. BOLAND. How would 14 people at Brooklyn handle 2,000 people for training?

Mr. DURKEE. They work very hard, Mr. Boland.
Mr. BOLAND. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

REQUIREMENTS FOR MANAGEMENT PROGRAM FUNDS

Mr. GIAIMO. In an attempt to get your force down to 800, do I understand you need this additional $750,000 and if you do not get the $750,000 you are going to have to reduce them below 800 in order to pay terminal pay?

Mr. DURKEE. That is right. It is largely a dollar problem of terminal pay-for example, when you issue these termination notices, as you know, some of them are not going to work out for one reason or another.

You never know what the actual dollar amount is going to be until every case is finally resolved. We are simply asking here for a margin of money which will allow us to accomplish this so that everybody gets equitable treatment and we can make all the required payments. Mr. GIAIMO. If you don't get the $750,000, then you are going to have to reduce your force below 800?

Mr. DURKEE. That might be the consequence.

Mr. GIAIMO. It might be or will be?

Mr. DURKEE. It would be one of the consequences.

Mr. JONAS. Of course, you could stay at 775 or go a few below that and probably absorb the $750,000.

Mr. DURKEE. Yes, I could.

Mr. JONAS. The 800 is merely a ceiling. It is not a floor.

Mr. DURKEE. I understand.

Mr. JONAS. If you are down to 775 now, roughly what would 25 employees amount to per year at your average grade salary?

Mr. DURKEE. At the current average salary, it would be about $300,000.

Mr. JONAS. If you got down to 750, you probably would be able to absorb the $750,000, wouldn't you?

Mr. DURKEE. No; you would have to get down to somewhere nearer 700, I think.

PROPOSED REPROGRAMING OF FUNDS

Mr. JONAS. I still haven't got it quite clear in my mind. I guess that is not your fault because you have the figures there. What you want to do is reshuffle your money and reprogram.

Mr. DURKEE. That is right.

Mr. JONAS. You want to eliminate $4,125,000 of planned spending in order to take care of these city hall jobs and the other items, is that right?

Mr. DURKEE. Could I protest the use of "city hall?”

Mr. JONAS. That is the term the chairman uses.

Now, can't you tell us in your own words without referring to too many tables what you are going to knock off to pick up that $4,125,000? Mr. DURKEE. In dollars?

Mr. JONAS. What activities are you going to reduce? Could you spell it out, 1, 2, 3, 4?

Mr. DURKEE. Yes; what I have done first is to reduce personnel, as I indicated.

Mr. JONAS. No; you want $750,000 for personnel, $750,000 more for personnel so you are not recouping anything there.

Mr. DURKEE. NO; I am getting down to taking the action required by Congress. The action required by Congress creates the financial demand

Mr. JONAS. You want $750,000 added to your personal services?
Mr. DURKEE. That is right, which is currently $10,027,000.

Mr. JONAS. You will get that $750,000 from some source. What is the source?

Mr. DURKEE. I have three different categories from which I am taking this. First, I am reducing the amount of money available for survival supplies, equipment, and training under the matching funds program.

Mr. JONAS. That is for survival equipment, supplies

Mr. DURKEE. Usually communications equipment

Mr. JONAS. Not stocking of supplies?

Mr. DURKEE. No, sir. These are all matching funds, contributions by the Federal Government.

Mr. JONAS. To refresh my memory, what was the total figure in the bill for that and how low are you reducing it?

Mr. DURKEE. There was no limitation in the final bill, but let me give you the actual figures in 1965. We spent $4,347,523 in that

account.

Mr. JONAS. You proposed to reduce that to what?

Mr. DURKEE. We propose to reduce our current fiscal year 1966 program distribution from $5 million to $3,500,000.

Mr. JONAS. That will pick up how much money?

Mr. DURKEE. $1.5 million.

Mr. JONAS. That would be $1.5 million of the $4,125,000. Can you pinpoint the other?

Mr. DURKEE. Yes; I am doing the same in emergency operating centers. The actual dollar amount obligated in 1965 is $5,761,358. Mr. JONAS. You propose to reduce that to what?

Mr. DURKEE. We propose to reduce our current fiscal year 1966 program distribution from $4.5 to $3.5 million.

Mr. JONAS. That is another $1.2 million.

Mr. DURKEE. $1 million.

Mr. JONAS. The other item?

Mr. DURKEE. The other item is "Broadcast station protection program," which in 1965 obligated $3,977,389. My current fiscal year 1966 program distribution would be reduced from $2.2 million to $1,075,000, a reduction of $1,125,000.

Mr. JONAS. Have you accounted for the $4,125,000?

Mr. DURKEE. Yes, sir; they are accounted for on this schedule we have submitted for the record.

Mr. JONAS. In the reductions you have indicated?

Mr. DURKEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JONAS. We have a lot of reprograming going on all the time in the military, in construction particularly, but this is the first time I have had any experience with reprograming an operation of this

nature.

ADEQUACY OF FUNDS AFTER REPROGRAMING

Are you satisfied you can carry on the three activities mentioned with the reduced amount at a level that will be satisfactory-not ideal from your standpoint, but at least satisfactory?

Mr. DURKEE. Yes, sir; I am. It would be satisfactory. For example, with respect to the broadcast station protection program, a large bulk of funds has gone into that program through last fiscal year so the bulk of radio stations requiring protection have been already financed. Only 118 remain to be financed and this will now be scheduled over a 2-year period instead of one.