tary of state. It is purely a mathematical formula in the large metropolitan areas. Senator BAYH. Could you tell us again how often this is done? Mr. GRAHAM. It is done every 10 years. And our senate is also apportioned every 10 years. Senator BAYH. The house customarily has one member for each county? Mr. GRAHAM. That is correct. Senator BAYH. Then what procedure does the secretary of state follow? Mr. GRAHAM. Well, he notifies the proper officials in the metropolitan areas as to the population, as reported in the census. Senator BAYH. But regardless of the population, each county just gets Mr. GRAHAM. Every county is entitled to at least one representaSenator BAYH. Do some counties have more? tive. Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, sir; St. Louis City has 15 to 18 representatives. St. Louis County has 22 or 23 representatives. Jackson County, which is Kansas City, has multiple representatives. Green County-Springfield-has three representatives. Boone CountyColumbia, Mo.-has two representatives. Senator BAYH. That is all right. I understand. Each county has at least one, and some of the larger metropolitan areas have more than one. Mr. GRAHAM. That is correct. Senator BAYH. Now, let me ask about the senate now. The Governor appoints this 10-man committee Mr. GRAHAM. From a list submitted by the two political parties; yes, sir. Senator BAYH. Equal representation of both parties, five in each party? Mr. GRAHAM. That is correct. Senator BAYH. And then this committee determines what the representation Mr. GRAHAM. They determine the senatorial districts; yes, sir. Senator BAYH. Are they limited in total number of the senate? Mr. GRAHAM. The constitution provides 34 senatorial districts. Senator BAYH. And these will be apportioned, then, by the 10-man committee? Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, sir. Senator BAYH. What criteria is used by the secretary of state and his advisers, and the 10-man committee? Do they use similar criteria to apportion both houses now? One of our witnesses said, for example, that each county in his State would get one representative, and then for every 100,000 you would get an extra one. Is there some formula like this in your State? Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, sir; that is contained in the constitution. Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, sir; as far as the house is concerned. The senate is purely a mathematical proposition, by the limitation of 34 senators, they must take the population of the State and divide it by 34, and to determine the population of each senatorial district. We had a provision in our constitution which was recently overruled by the U.S. district court in Kansas City of a deviation of 25 percent, either above or below the mean. And they held that was not reasonable. So in addition to being in a position of reapportioning the house of representatives this time, we must also provide for the reapportionment of our State senate as well as our congressional districts. So we have quite a session facing us. Senator BAYH. Is it fair to say that the senate in Missouri has been, according to the provision of the 25 percent limitation, reasonably reapportioned according to population alone? Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, sir; Ithink so. Senator BAYH. With 25 percent leeway? Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, sir. Senator BAYH. Mr. Speaker, we include in S. J. Res. 2 the possi bility of including other factors. What have the legislators and people of Missouri felt were other factors; that they considered in their apportionment? Mr. GRAHAM. Well, I can only speak from past experience. And the only factor we have considered heretofore has been area, counties. This would be, of course, up to the people of the State, to either adopt or reject a proposal submitted to it by the legislature. It would be up to the court to determine whether these factors would be reasonable. Senator BAYH. The map of Missouri that you brought to us is a very interesting portrayal of Mr. GRAHAM. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that my county is in white, so I am not affected by this. Senator BAYH. I am certain that would not color your judgment. Is it possible to get another map telling the same story only on a little different basis? I have heard all sorts of stories about what the State of Missouri would look like. In other words, if the Supre Court decision were implemented in Missouri, how many representa tives would you have in the two largest metropolitan areas, Kansas C and St. Louis? How many representatives would then be dispered throughout this black area? Mr. GRAHAM. I haven't ever taken the time or effort to divide the population and find out how much each district-I mean what the population of St. Louis or St. Louis County would be entitled to under this formula, the one-man-one-vote. I really could not tell you. Senator BAYH. Do you have any idea how many States would' forced to joint together, how many different counties would have : be represented? Mr. GRAHAM. My county would be forced, because we would be ove the mean considerably-we would be entitled to one and a half repre sentatives. We would be forced to join another county in order t give that other county sufficient population but some of the souther counties are very sparsely populated-five or six, perhaps. Senator BAYH. In other words, how large a geographical an would one State representative-if you can get that information fo, to it would be helpful. Mr. GRAHAM. It would run as much as 100, 125 miles. Senator BAYH. Could you get that for us? Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, sir, I would be happy to. Senator BAYH. Let me ask you as a high official in the State legislative area, what sort of a problem do you see of conflicting State and Federal constitutional provisions? One of the things that is well known about State governments, in many of our States, is the difficulty in changing the State constitution. For example, in Indiana it takes a minimum of 6 years. Do you anticipate any problems in Missouri? Can you give us any advice or counsel? We have conflicting State and Federal constitutional provisions now. For example, a witness from Colorado pointed out the differences there. Mr. GRAHAM. We would have no difficulty in Missouri, because this could be—if we are required to amend our constitution, we can do it at either a special or the general election. It is up to the Governor. Senator BAYH. The legislature itself? Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, sir. We have the initiative method. Senator BAYH. As has been pointed out, the enactment of S. Res. 2 or a similar measure does not mandate the States to use other than population. Mr. GRAHAM. That is correct. Perhaps the people of Missouri or any other State may well wish to continue the one-man-one-vote theory. As I understand this resolution, it would not prohibit that. Senator BAYH. You do have a referendum initiative in Missouri. Mr. GRAHAM. Yes. Senator BAYH. Let me ask you one thought. As a member of the State legislature, do you share the concern of Some who feel that there needs to be one house-that considers other factors, if certain basic important economic interests are to be adequately thought out by the so-called big city delegations. As you pointed out can you give us some examples of Missouri law, Missouri statutes, that might be ignored by big city delegations? I can think of one in Indiana. For example, the redistribution formula for schools takes into consideration transportation. In rural areas this would be a significant problem, whereas in metropolitan areas it would not. Mr. GRAHAM. Well, we had a bill up this last week on a minimum wage law. That perhaps might be a good example. We got into a hassle over the agricultural migratory workers. The representatives from the metropolitan areas were in favor of establishing a dollar minimum wage in Missouri and completely overlooked the factor of agricultural labor, migratory workers. Had it not been for the predominance of rural members, I am sure that the bill would have passed as it was written. That perhaps may not be a good example. Senator BAYH. I think it is. Mr. GRAHAM. But we defeated the minimum wage law, much to the satisfaction of some of the individuals of the State who are engaged in farm products. I am thinking of cotton. Senator BAYH. Can you think of any other examples? Mr. GRAHAM. Right off I cannot. Senator BAYH. How about distribution of gas tax? Mr. GRAHAM. Well, we have a proposal now that the cities feel they are being discriminated against by not receiving-not gasoline tax, but sales tax-a greater proportion of sales tax they feel should ge back to the metropolitan areas. The metropolitan areas with respect to gas tax feel that the highwa commission is not building sufficient roads in the metropolitan areas completely overlooking the fact that if we did not have the highways in rural Missouri to carry the produce to the metropolitan areas, and to carry the people to those areas to buy those products, there would not be any need for highways in the metropolitan communities. Senator BAYH. Do you feel that the well-being of the State as whole is affected not by these minority populations but sizable economic interest groups? Mr. GRAHAM. I think so. I think it has given us a conservative legislature in Missouri. It is conservative, not to the extent of being reactionary. We still have progressed greatly in the last 20 years But because of this diversity of interests and background and education and callings, we have a tendency not to be swayed by the metro politan newspapers who come out on a proposal hot and heavy, and sometimes the metropolitan representatives are afraid to go against these newspapers. We have this balance of power from the rural areas which prohib a switching from one way to another on the spur of the moment. Senator HRUSKA. Would the Senator yield? That balance of power would be destroyed by unadulterated applica tion of the Reynolds and Sims rule, wouldn't it? Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, sir. Senator HRUSKA. As it is now, and has been heretofore, neither c the factions, whether metropolitan nor nonmetropolitan, if you wan to call them that for want of a better term, can run away with any thing, can they? Mr. GRAHAM. Yes, sir, that is correct. Senator HRUSKA. Yet under Reynolds v. Sims that balance toward composite judgment, which all parts of the State can live with, would be eliminated. Isn't that the crux of the problem? Mr. GRAHAM. That is correct. And as an interesting sidelight on this, the mayor of St. Louis has proposed this one-man-one-vote-has come out in favor of it-because he says the metropolitan area of S Louis has suffered as a result of this rural domination. But he forgets, or he fails to remember that had it not been for the rural legislators, when he came to the legislature asking for an earnings tax for the city of St. Louis, he would not have gotten it, because the legislators in St. Louis County, which completely surround the city of St. Louis, were certainly not in favor of it, because that is where the money is located in the St. Louis area-it has moved to the county. And so what he is asking us to do is compound the problems that h already has. I have never seen it once in the 14 years I have been a member of the legislature that when the city of St. Louis legislative delegation cam to Jefferson City united on a course of action, on a course of conduct, or on legislation, that it ever failed to pass legislation. It is onl when they disagree among themselves that they fail to pass the legisla tion which the administration in St. Louis City perhaps deems neces sary. Senator BAYH. Could you get us some additional information on this earnings tax? This is the first good example that we have had. Mr. GRAHAM. You know Senator BAYH. An example of rural legislators helping out metropolitan areas. Mr. GRAHAM. There is no question about it. It is also interesting to go a little further, Mr. Chairman. If we have the one-man-one-vote, St. Louis County is going to have far more representatives, pick up far more representatives than will the city of St. Louis. So there might be a possibility that the earnings tax could be repealed, and St. Louis cannot live without it. Senator BAYH. I would like to have some additional information on it. Not that I doubt your statement, but I would like for the record to be more complete in this area. Let me propose one other question. It is one that has been concerning me a bit since we first started. Perhaps my distinguished colleague from Nebraska would like to include his thoughts in this as well. We are concerned, many are concerned, about the majority of people, the population in a city taking action that would be detrimental to basic economic interests in a rural area, large rural areas, which, having great benefit to the State as a whole, and as a result to the majority itself-in other words, it is sort of like killing the hen that laid the golden egg. Are our State legislators so unreasonable that they don't recognize that if they penalize through legislative enactment these sparsely setled areas, representing timber, cattle, minerals, mining, these economic interests, that they are really damaging the State as a whole? What is your thought as a speaker who has seen legislators in action? Mr. GRAHAM. Well, perhaps we have been more fortunate in Misuri than some other States. But I believe that the legislators as a whole are reasonable in their actions. As I said before, because of this diversity of interests and background and area, we are a conservative legislature, and we are not essured into acting hastily on a proposition. It is very difficult to ss legislation through the Missouri House. At least it has been up now. I qualify that by saying up to now. I don't know what is going to happen this session-we are in such a turmoil over this reapportionment. I don't think there has ever been an occasion when one area has tried to pass legislation which is purely and simply to penalize another area. I haven't found that. Does that answer your question? Senator BAYH. Yes. Mr. GRAHAM. I haven't found that. Senator HRUSKA. Would the Senator yield? Didn't you give us an example where the periphery of St. Louis County proper is going to look to the State of Missouri for any great fort? If they expect to get back to the next legislative session, they ster vote against that earnings tax. Isn't that one classical example, where it is not a matter of intelligence-it is a matter of sheer political Survival? Some politicians are motivated that way. Perhaps in Missouri, you folks are not. From what you have said. if Reynolds v. Sims will result in a greater increase in St. |