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Detail of fiscal year 1980 budget estimate for other services Defense Contract Audit Agency for research assistance ..............

$138,000 General Accounting Office for administrative services ..............

30,000 Department of Energy for computer services ............

15,000 Service Bureau Corp. for computer punch-card services .............

5,000 Total

188,000 There were no professional or consulting firms contracted in fiscal year 1978 or during the first quarter of fiscal year 1979.

SUPPLIES AND MATERIALS Mr. BENJAMIN. Also for the record, explain in more detail your request for supplies and materials and provide information concerning the expenditures for each class, by quarter, for calendar year 1978. [The information follows:]

The obligations and expenditures by quarter for Piscal Year 1978 and the first quarter of Fiscal Year 1979 are as follows:

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Most of these obligations and expenditures were for subscriptions for professional accounting journals, the U.S. Code, Annotated, and for procirenent of supplies and materials from the General Services Administration Retail Store.

. We anticipate obligations and expenditures for FY 1980 as follows:

Total

Subscriptions

Photocopy
Supplies

Supplies
GSA Misc.
Stores Supplies

Total

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5,200

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220

1.800

4.200

. 780

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1,800

BOARD ACTIVITIES Mr. BENJAMIN. Would you be kind enough to explain the activities of the board during the last year? For example, how many times did they meet? What is their relationship to the staff? Mr. STAATS. You are speaking about the board itself now? Mr. BENJAMIN. Yes, sir. Mr. STAATS. We meet normally once a month, for at least a full day, but preceding the board meeting, the members of the staff will brief each of the members of the board on matters that are coming up at the board meeting. This enables us to eliminate a lot of the details at the meeting itself. Otherwise we would have to have a longer meeting time. The board itself has been also doing a lot of homework, in reading these responses from the contractors and other people.

Mr. BENJAMIN. When they do homework, do they get paid for that? Is that a chargeable day?

Mr. STAATS. Some of the board members don't take anything at all. They do it as a public service. I guess you would have to answer that question.

Mr. SCHOENHAUT. Yes, it is chargeable, but we only have two board members that charge any time at all currently.

Mr. BENJAMIN. But they charge days other than the days that they are just in meetings; is that correct?

Mr. SCHOENHAUT. Yes, they can when they are working on board materials or they are traveling.

Mr. BENJAMIN. Kind of an honor system? Mr. SCHOENHAUT. Yes. Mr. STAATS. The statute says that they can do it but they are doing a lot more work than they are getting paid for, I can tell you that. I don't get anything extra for it.

Mr. SCHOENHAUT. They each keep a calendar of just how much time they are spending on board work, but at least one of the outside board members has never in 8 years requested any reimbursement, except for travel expense.

Mr. BENJAMIN. On your consultants, do they charge for their homework too? Mr. SCHOENHAUT. No, sir. Mr. BENJAMIN. In other words, for the days you pay them, they are physically in the office?

Mr. SCHOENHAUT. Yes, sir. There might be an exception to that with the fellow up at Harvard. We might send him something and ask him for his comments or his views and he may give it to us in writing or he may come down for a meeting. It all depends on what is involved, but all of the rest are on board where I can see them.

SUPPLEMENTAL APPROPRIATIONS Mr. BENJAMIN. Do you have any supplementals pending for 1979 to cover the classified pay raises granted Federal employees in October 1978?

Mr. SCHOENHAUT. No, sir. We have never requested a supplemental. Mr. BENJAMIN. Mr. Rudd, any questions? Mr. RUDD. No questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. BENJAMIN. You have certain information that we requested and I trust that the responses will be returned to us shortly. In the event that we have further questions after receiving that response, we will submit it for the record, get a copy to you, and ask for your reply.

Thank you very much.

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 1979

GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE

WITNESSES

ELMER B. STAATS, COMPTROLLER GENERAL OF THE UNITED

STATES ROBERT F. KELLER, DEPUTY COMPTROLLER GENERAL OF

THE UNITED STATES MILTON J. SOCOLAR, GENERAL COUNSEL JOHN D. HELLER, ASSISTANT TO THE COMPTROLLER GEN

ERAL CLERIO P. PIN, ASSISTANT TO THE COMPTROLLER GENERAL HENRY ESCHWEGE, DIRECTOR, COMMUNITY AND ECONOMIC

DEVELOPMENT DIVISION GREGORY J. AHART, DIRECTOR, HUMAN RESOURCES DIVISION RICHARD L. BROWN, DIRECTOR, GENERAL SERVICES AND

CONTROLLER RYAN S. YUILLE, DIRECTOR, EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTU

NITY OFFICE DEXTER J. PEACH, DIRECTOR, ENERGY AND MINERALS DIVI.

SION HYMAN L. KRIEGER, DIRECTOR, FEDERAL PERSONNEL AND

COMPENSATION DIVISION DONALD L. SCANTLEBURY, DIRECTOR, FINANCIAL AND GENER

AL MANAGEMENT STUDIES DIVISION DONALD J. HORAN, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, LOGISTICS AND COM

MUNICATIONS DIVISION WALTON H. SHELEY, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, PROCUREMENT AND

SYSTEMS ACQUISITION DIVISION DANIEL P. LEARY, DIRECTOR, CLAIMS DIVISION HARRY S. HAVENS, DIRECTOR, PROGRAM ANALYSIS DIVISION ALLEN R. VOSS, DIRECTOR, GENERAL GOVERNMENT DIVISION CHARLES D. HYLANDER, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL

DIVISION HARRY SANGER, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, GENERAL GOVERNMENT DIVISION

Mr. BENJAMIN. This afternoon we will be taking up the General Accounting Office. Mr. Staats, if you have a statement on behalf of the General Accounting Office, would you please deliver your statement?

STATEMENT OF MR. STAATS Mr. Staats. I do have, Mr. Chairman. Before I turn to my prepared statement, I would like to just comment generally about where we are on GAO. We are facing a very difficult situation. As you know, we received no increase in

1978. In 1979, this committee and the Senate committee, as well, concurred in an increase of 120 staff years for GAO, funded for six months for that year, bringing it up to a total of 5,264.

Mr. RUDD. Mr. Chairman, may I interject a short question there? Mr. BENJAMIN. Yes.

Mr. RUDD. Why do you express your needs in staff years rather than staff positions?

Mr. STAATS. A staff year is an average employment. Positions can be used or not used, but the prevailing practice in budgeting, and my experience in the budgeting field for years has been to use the term average employment or staff years. It is the same idea. That is what you have to pay for. You don't have to pay for positions, because you may or may not use them. You may not fill them. So a staff year is a filled position for one year.

Mr. RUDD. What if that position is only filled for three months?

Mr. STAATS. You count it as one-fourth of a staff year. We used to call them man years until all the ladies got after us, and we had to change it to staff years.

Mr. RUDD. What if the position is filled only for six months? Mr. STAATS. Then you put it down as one-half of a staff year.

Mr. Rudd. That comes out at the end of the year. You will come out with whatever the figure is and one fourth or two-thirds? Okay. Thank you.

Mr. STAATS That is what you pay for. You pay for a full-time filled position.

BUDGETARY STATUS OF GAO Mr. BENJAMIN. Mr. Staats, you are explaining the status of GAO at this time, and you indicated you did not receive an increase in 1975 and, in looking at the appropriation level on page 218 of the subcommittee print, in 1977 the GAO received $150,580,000; that was an increase, with a pay supplemental of $6,509,000, for a total of $157,089,500, and then

Mr. STAATS. It did not provide for any more staff.
Mr. BENJAMIN. So it is not the size of the budget, but the staff?

Mr. STAATS. We didn't get more staff. We got more dollars, but not more staff, that is right.

Mr. BENJAMIN. Between 1977 and 1978. Mr. STAATS. That is right. Then you know what happened on the floor of the House and Senate. They reduced the whole legislative branch budget, so we had to put on a hiring freeze immediately, and we are down to 5,108 employees as of the end of this month. GAO has submitted a supplemental request for fiscal year 1979. Part of the request covers the pay increase granted last fall and the remainder of about $5.5 million would enable us to finance 82 staff years above the amount which is available for the current fiscal year. Without some relief via a supplemental we will be down to 5,100 staff years for this year, which is 44 staff years below our 1978 level.

WORKLOAD INCREASE Against this situation we have had a tremendous increase in workload over the past two years. As you know, the overall Federal expenditures in the past two years has increased more than $90 billion.

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