the Interior. They are testifying on this important program of pollution, solid waste disposal, and so forth.

We hope that you will remain with us as long as you can and that you will derive some benefit out of this.

Do you have any questions, Mr. Mackay?

Mr. MACKAY. No questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Gilligan?
Mr. GILLIGAN. No question.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rogers.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I believe it is stated in your prepared statement that you are spending about $1 million annually on research on the waste disposal research investigation?

Mr. EDWARDS. That is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. What do you contemplate doing on the proposed law?

Mr. EDWARDS. I am not thoroughly familiar with that. You are talking about it figurewise?

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Yes.

Mr. EDWARDS. Mr. Finnegan says that he has some information on that.

Mr. FINNEGAN. We do not have any exact figures, but we have some estimates that have not been cleared through the Bureau of the Budget-estimates that we could give now which would be, approximately, $4.5 million for the first fiscal year of this operation.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. And what do you anticipate for the next 5 years?

Mr. FINNEGAN. We have not developed estimates beyond the first year, sir.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Not beyond the first year?

Mr. FINNEGAN. No.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. What present research are you doing?
Mr. FINNEGAN. Mr. Rosenbaum can answer that.

Mr. ROSENBAUM. The work that we propose would be to expand the design mining systems.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. What are you doing now?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. Our present program consists of devising mining systems which I explained to the chairman with the hope to devise and improve the mining systems, so that most of the waste or much. of the waste can be disposed of underground. This would have the advantage not only of ridding the surface of unwanted waste materials, but it would, also, support the ground and prevent subsequent subsidence of the ground.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Is there any research being done by contract?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. Within the Bureau of the Mines at the present time all of our work is done in intermural laboratories of the Bureau of Mines.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. How long have you been working on this? Mr. ROSENBAUM. The Bureau of Mining Research program started about 6 years ago.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Have you had any specific results yet?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. I think we have had several specific results, yes; that will make some real contributions. As an illustration we have done very much toward the recovery of rock from mines of low cost. We are doing much work on the development techniques as to waste materials on the surface and compacting these underground, finding a means by which they can be compacted so that it will reduce the amount of the waste.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. You do not do any research under contract? Mr. ROSENBAUM. This is all in the Bureau of Mines. We do not have any contract research up to this point.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Do you plan to continue this work intermurally or do you plan to have contract work?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. This legislation which would give the Bureau of Mines the authority to enter into contracts for research; would give it a wonderful opportunity to supplement our in-house work by going to the outside to get the kind of skills that we are not justified in building up and this will give us a better opportunity to accelerate the rate of progress that we are making so far.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. How many people do you have on your research work in the Bureau of Mines now?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. You are talking now about the entire research statement of the Bureau of Mines or just the section addressed to this particular area here?

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. I am particularly interested in the research, and disposal of solid wastes.

Mr. ROSENBAUM. I would estimate that in this particular area on the disposal of the solid wastes, we have, probably, 270 involved in various aspects of this. This includes more than just mining research. This includes all of the difficulties with red muck, which the chairman was talking about, and everything else, waste from ores, et cetera. Mr. ROGERS of Florida. What emphasis do you plan to place on research?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. We would substantially double the area in which we are attempting to devise mining systems for the disposal of the waste in underground openings. We, also, will expand our operations on the recovery of metals, useful materials in the waste. We, also, would expand the program that we have started on the processing of junk automobiles to make these economically attractive to the steel consuming industry. And, further, we would like to get into a contract program and, also, ultimately, a demonstration program to take care of the overall problem of urban communities in providing the necessary construction materials, sand, gravel, the aggregates which become an increasing problem in urban areas, because of the waste heaps, and the unsightly mess of these operations which make them increasingly undesirable. And at the same time we hope to get an integrated program on this by which the space or the quarries or the holes made in extracting the construction materials, could then be used as a disposal site for sanitary fill or ash from incinerators.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. What is presently being done or what has been done in the last 2 or 3 years on the disposal of automobiles?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. It started in a very small way, our disposal of automobiles. The Minneapolis Research Center has a program which

started with demonstrating that we can use the scrap metal for the preparation of very high grade iron ores in which it becomes the raw material, instead of being used in the process. Starting this June we have an expanded program which has already been started and in which we hope to show how the scrap automobiles can be more attractively put into the steel consuming community.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Do you feel that this is a very practical approach then?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. We feel that it is a practical and a necessary approach; yes.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. What has been the response of the industry in using these old cars?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. The response, nationwide, so far as that is concerned, is such that we have been flooded with endorsements of this from people all over the country. The indication was that the Department of the Interior was going to handle this problem. Folks have been agitated by the junk heaps that clutter up the landscape. They have offered suggestions and ideas as to how we might proceed. Mr. ROGERS of Florida. You have already had research, so that you feel that the stuff from the automobiles can be used to make high grade iron ore, did you say?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. We already have a program on it. We have demonstrated this in a small laboratory, on a small laboratory scale. And in next year's program we hope to have a better opportunity to determine the economics of this problem.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Is there any indication-is the industry cooperating with you in carrying out this research or is it again just the Bureau?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. Up to this point it has been in the Department of Interior-it has strictly been in the Bureau.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. What has been the cost?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. Our cost in this particular area?

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. In other words, if you take the automobiles, what is the cost factor in converting those into usable material?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. This is what we hope to salvage, the economic feasibility in the work that we are carrying on and that will be carried on this year on a much larger scale. The small-scale operation has presented evidence to justify our proceeding.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. What has it shown-what do you say that your cost factor is?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. At this particular point, using the automobiles processed for us, we show an automobile cost that might be worth $20-presuming that there was $20 in the original that we could use this iron to treat ore and to produce, perhaps, $100 worth of iron ore, that the automobile hulk itself would become artificial ore-artificial high grade ore-that in itself would, perhaps, be worth $25 or $26.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. And how much would it cost to convert this would there be a very large cost in converting the old automobile?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. The actual cost here would have to depend upon the cost analysis, based upon better information that we hope to get

next year.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Do you have any idea now?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. Offhand, from the top of my head, as an estimate, it looks sufficiently attractive that it will justify the further pursuit of this research.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. In other words, $20 worth of scrap material from an automobile could, probably, turn out to produce $100? Mr. ROSENBAUM. Yes. When I say to convert the iron ore this iron ore can, possibly, be converted to higher grade material by using other types of reduction. In our particularly instance we have devised a process in which we want to use the scrap iron to dispose of it. We hope this will be economically attractive, because if we make it attractive it will more likely be adopted by the industry. That is one of our considerations. Instead of using iron as a reduction to process these low-grade ores it is possible to do otherwise. And our selection of iron, in that we believe we may use it more economically and attractive than any other reduction.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. It has been encouraging to hear this. I would hope that you would put every effort behind it, because I think that everyone is concerned with this. If you can make it economically feasible, I think that this would be worth while, to take all of the old automobiles away from our highways and our neighborhoods and put them to useful uses.

Mr. ROSENBAUM. This is only one phase of our proposed program. This is only one part of it. Other parts of the program would be to actually use the scrap metal in steelmaking to determine to what extent we are able to make improved procedures to get rid of the nonferrous and other impurities in the material. We propose to determine whether or not we can find other beneficial uses for this scrap metal. Large amounts of iron could be used to recover metallic copper from the solution. We want to determine to what extent the scrap automobiles can help in this.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. But the scrap automobile program in this research now looks promising and it looks like it will be economically feasible to approach it in this manner in getting rid of these piles of automobiles, by converting them to other materials?

Mr. ROSENBAUM. Many programs would be needed, depending upon the location of the country, how far you were away to taking the iron ores. It might be that in an area within a reasonable shipping distance that the iron might be available and applicable, but in other areas it might not be applicable.

Mr. ROGERS of Florida. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Edwards and gentlemen for your presence here today and the information which you have imparted to the committee.

Mr. EDWARDS. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. You will provide the additional information. We may want to get you in here later after that is completed.

Mr. EDWARDS. I understand that the information will be made. available.

The CHAIRMAN. The next witnesses are Mr. Joseph W. Mullan and Mr. James R. Garvey of the National Coal Association.

STATEMENT OF JOSEPH W. MULLAN, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, TECHNICAL SERVICES DEPARTMENT; ACCOMPANIED BY GLYNN L CORYELL, DIRECTOR, TECHNICAL SERVICES DEPARTMENT, NATIONAL COAL ASSOCIATION

Mr. MULLAN. My name is Joseph W. Mullan, assistant director of the Technical Services Department of the National Coal Association, and I am accompanied by Mr. Glynn L. Coryell, who is the director of the Technical Services Department of the National Coal Association. The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed as you desire. We are glad to have both of you here.

Mr. MULLAN. I would request that our statements be placed in the record and the statement of Mr. Garvey as well.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We have both statements and they will be included in the record at the conclusion of your remarks.

Mr. MULLAN. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, we want to thank you and your committee for the opportunity to present the views of the National Coal Association on the various air pollution bills presently being reviewed by your committee.

The National Coal Association is a national trade association whose member companies account for the major portion of the bituminous coal produced and marketed in the United States.

Over the years, our industry has recognized the need for air pollution control and has cooperated with responsible segments of communities faced with air pollution problems. We have assisted in the drafting of local and State air pollution regulations; have voluntarily supplied factual information on emissions; and have helped develop practical means to control such emissions.

The coal industry through its research agency, Bituminous Coal Research, Inc., is presently developing new methods to improve air pollution control further. These projects are in some cases on a matching dollar basis with industries which utilize bituminous coal. One example is a joint project with the Edison Electric Institute and the Association of Edison Illuminating Cos. to develop and evaluate methods to control sulfur emissions.

The National Coal Association has maintained for several years an air pollution control division, with a staff of engineers who regularly help control agencies correct existing problems and evaluate installation of new equipment.

We mention these facts to point out that we speak from long and diverse experience in air pollution control but we must note that we do not feel qualified to comment on the several bills that are not concerned with the coal industry.

In several bills provision is made for a technical committee to encourage the development of low-cost techniques designed to reduce emissions of oxides of sulfur produced by the combustion of sulfurcontaining fuels. We feel the need for such a coordinating activity to develop a better understanding of the gap between technical feasibility and economic practicality. Such coordination and understanding will perhaps make it possible to close that gap in the near future.