particular question. Then we can know whether we are able to proceed with further discussion." Arizona offers this in reply: "The Arizona committee would reply to Mr. Squires that it is ready to negotiate with reference to the project at Boulder Canyon or any othe site, provided the details with reference to that development can be worked out in a manner satisfactory to Arizona, and in the event we can arrive at an agreement, the Arizona Committee is fully prepared to urge cooperation to the fullest extent in such development." Mr. SWING. Could we have that read again, please? (Typewritten copies of the reply were handed to the Nevada delegation and to the California delegation.) Mr. SWING. May I make this inquiry from the Arizona committee? I just wrote this down hurriedly a minute ago after I came in after lunch. I think it expresses what we were trying to arrive at, and I submitted it to Mr. Squires a moment ago. I will just read it. I think this really expresses the California thought, I know on the subject. It would have to be in some such form in substance as this: It is agreed between the various representatives of the States here assembled that any agreement entered into shall contain in substance a proviso that the State of Arizona shall immediately withdraw its opposition to the construction of a dam at Boulder Canyon, at or near Boulder Canyon, a dam in the Colorado River at or near Boulder Canyon, and will urge immediate development of such project in order that the said States and the people jointly may utilize at the earliest possible moment the resources of this great river now being wasted. If we can agree on that I think we can proceed. Mr. REID. Mr. Chairman, may I ask Mr. Swing a question? Chairman VAN DYKE. Yes. Mr. REID. Is that in the form of an ultimatum to the committee, to the Arizona committee, that we must agree on something like that in order to proceed? Senator SWING. Oh, no. I tried to express in here what I understood was the question we were discussing just before noon and the form in which some action should be taken. Mr. REID. In other words, you want us to enter into an agreement to do certain things even before we discuss it, is that the idea? Senator SWING. NO. Mr. REID. What is the object of that resolution then? Senator SWING. It is not in the nature of a resolution. In following up the Nevada representative's statement then of course if we are going to go ahead we want to decide this question and get it out of our way. We dispose of it in this way, that in any agreement that we may enter into in the future between us here that agreement shall contain a proviso in substance along the lines I have read. Mr. REID. Well, Mr. Swing, you are not in a position now. nor prepared to state at this time just what Nevada wants in that agreement are you? Senator SWING. No, I am not in a position to state anything in regard to what Nevada wants in so far as Nevada goes. Mr. REID. Are you in a position to state just what California wants in that agreement? Mr. SWING. Not entirely, no. Mr. REID. Is Mr. Squires, for Nevada? Mr. SWING. You will have to address that remark to him. Mr. REID. Are you, Mr. Squires, in a position to state definitely what Nevada wants in this particular development? Mr. SQUIRES. I think so. Our position is quite clear, that assuming that opposition to the construction of a dam at Boulder Canyon is withdraw by Arizona Mr. MADDOCK (interrupting). Just a moment. For my particular personal privilege and benefit, what objection has there been on the part of Arizona to the construction of a dam at Boulder that must be withdrawn? Mr. SQUIRES. I can't say definitely except it has been generally understood that your governor had the dam at Glen Canyon or some other place up the river. Mr. MADDOCK. That is why we thought this morning that we ought to enter into a general discussion in order that we could dissipate some of the general misunderstandings which were not real misunderstandings and don't exist. Senator SWING. Then, if there is no opposition, why can't we say there isn't any? Then that is easy. Mr. MADDOCK. We have submitted the answer. Mr. SQUIRES. With reservations, however. Mr. REID. The question which Mr. Squires asked this morning if Arizona would withdraw its opposition, if any it had, to the project at Boulder Canyon, as far as I am concerned, I never heard that Arizona had any objections to a dam at Boulder Canyon. Senator SWING. Then there would not be any serious objection to such an agreement on your part? Mr. REID. Not at all if we had a clear understanding of what that development was going to be. We don't want to agree to do something until we know how the details of that is going to work out. You say you are not in a position to submit at this time just what California wants in that. Senator SWING. On that particular? Mr. REID. On that particular, are you? Mr. REID. If you will just submit that we will surely try to work it out. Mr. SWING. You know what the construction at Boulder Canyon is. There isn't anybody in this room that don't know that. You haven't If you will Mr. REID. We don't know what California wants out of that. stated; neither has Nevada stated what they want out of it. state that we are prepared to enter into a discussion of it with you. Senator SWING. Have you ever heard of the construction of a dam in Boulder Canyon? Mr. REID. Yes. Senator SWING. Are you in favor or opposed to the construction of a dam in Boulder Canyon? Mr. REID. That depends on this agreement entirely. Senator SWING. What do you mean by agreement? Mr. REID. What kind of an agreement we would come to. Assuming every detail was worked out to our satisfaction I would be in favor of it. Senator SWING. That isn't what the governor says. Mr. REID. We are not talking about what the governor says: we are trying to negotiate something through this committee. Senator SWING. I think you would have to go back to your principal. Mr. REID. I don't think we do. I don't think, I don't believe that needs to enter into this agreement at all. Mr. MADDOCK. Will you allow us to seek our own peace with our governor? Senator SWING. I haven't any objection to that. That might, be done by a withdrawal of this statement. Mr. REID. I can't see any necessity for the governor to withdraw any statement. If we are going into a parley here to come to an agreement, we are going into it with open minds. This committee, is I am sure to try to work out something for the benefit of California, Arizona and Nevada. I am sure Arizona is just as much interested in that development as any of you gentlemen here, I feel we are ready and willing to go ahead with it. We want to see it go ahead. Now you come in here and say that we have to agree to something before you work out the details: we have to agree to a contract before we understand what the nature of that contract is. You are asking too much. Be moderate in your request and we will grant it. Senator SWING. All we ask is that you withdraw your opposition. Mr. REID. We haven't offered any. We never had any opposition. Senator SWING. Then if you hadn't any it is easy to agree to the balance of it. Mr. REID. We can't withdraw something that has never been expressed. Senator SWING. It has been expressed. Mr. MCCLUSKEY. Mr. Swing, there are discussed in connection with Boulder Canyon, a Clark dam, a Los Angeles project, a southern California Edison project, an Arthur P. Davis, the high dam project, a lower dam project and a Kelley project, and Boulder project and Black Canyon project, all with several different heights of dams and several different methods of financing them and several different methods of control. We are particularly interested in the details of affecting those various propositions. We have three or four damsites in Arizona that one or two of those dams propose to flood out. We are interested in that detail among many other details. The proposition of a general statement-I don't know of any particular objection in Arizona to development at Boulder Canyon. There may be objection to certain developments at Boulder Canyon. That is only one of the details that must be ironed out by a discussion and worked out. Mr. McGREGOR. There is lots of objection in California to Boulder Canyon also. Mr. REID. May I ask you another question? Haven't you some idea on the part of the California delegation as to the method of controlling the appropriated and flood waters which might be stored in any reservoir which we would build on the river? Senator SWING. Ask that question again. Mr. REID. Haven't you some idea, or your committee, of the method of control which might be used on any reservoir that might be built in the river, whether at Boulder Canyon or Black Canyon or whatever it may be? Senator SWING. I can't answer that question. In fact I don't think so. Mr. REID. You don't think you would be interested in the control feature of it at all? Senator SWING. I didn't say that. That isn't what you asked me. Mr. REID. You haven't any definite plan on it? Senator SWING. We haven't any definite plan on it. Mr. FINNEY. Do you mean between private or government control? Mr. REID. I mean a division of waters and a control of your normal flows which is appropriated in the State of Arizona and California to-day. It seems to me like there are a lot of things to enter into the question of any construction, not only from Nevada's viewpoint but from California's, that you are just as interested in it as we are. Senator SWING. There is one thing that Nevada wishes to know, and that is that the construction of this dam will be at or near a certain location. Mr. REID. Let me ask you this in that connection Mr. MADDOCK. I don't quite understand our parlimentary procedure. I have never participated in this particular arrangement, but an orderly procedure would be, having replied to Nevada that Nevada would tell us whether or not our reply is satisfactory, and I think we ought to settle that before we proceed to the next step. Mr. REID. Probably would, but the idea I had in mind was that Mr. Swing's proposal there Senator SWING. I thought I stated at the time my own thoughts upon the subject. Mr. REID. I was trying to find out whether the California delegation was in a position to accept in its entirety the proposition that the reservoir might be built at Boulder Canyon without any reservations. Senator SWING. That question has not been addressed to us directly yet. The question now to be answered is- Mr. REID. We tried to answer that and if it is satisfactorySenator SWING. We will wait until Nevada replies to you. Mr. REID. If it is satisfactory we are ready to proceed. factory it may be we can give you a better answer. If it isn't satis Mr. MADDOCK. I think if we had gone on that trip we would break down this reserve and get a little better acquainted and would not be so scared of one another. It looks like a lot of preliminary hours are being wasted by feeling the other fellow out. Mr. BORDEN. Well, gentlemen, we consider this an answer in generalization with reservations similar to the speech made to us this morning. As far as the governor is concerned we can see no difference in this and the general trend of that talk. But the meeting was started off laying those premises and we feel that this answer is in that same line, a generalization without any definite statement as to action except with reservations. Mr. REID. Well, have you gentlemen got any specific proposal that you want to make to have us give you a specific answer on in reference to that development? Mr. BORDEN. A dam at Black or Boulder Canyon. Mr. REID. You have made it two now instead of one. Mr. BORDEN. The Boulder Canyon is a long one. The upper end is the Boulder site and the lower end is the Black Canyon site. 50 miles apart. Mr. SQUIRES. Twenty miles. They are about Mr. REID. Just how do you want to make that development so we can give you a specific answer; at which point do you want to make it and what is the height of your dam and what do you want to use it for, power or irrigation or regulation of flood control? Mr. BORDEN. We want to put the dam in there and begin its development. We can get the same possibly in a different manner than you people can, and we are willing to arbitrate those rights as far as they are concerned; but you have to start with something. You can't start all over the State of Arizona or Nevada and say "now some place up here we are going to put in a dam." Now, what are the rights? We want to confiine it to a location which is in the Boulder Canyon, either at the upper end at the Boulder Canyon site or at the lower end where the Black Canyon site is. Put in something. Start with a dam and then begin to develop the use of the waters. Mr. REID. You ask us to make you a definite, specific statement with reference to this development, and now I say on the part of the committee I think the committee can answer you just as definitely if you will give us definitely just what you want to do and how you want to do it. I don't think we could do that until we know just what you want the committee to do, whether you want the dam for a power dam, or whether you want the dam for a flood-control dam, or whether for storage of the normal flow, or a combinatin power dam, or what. Mr. BORDEN. All four. Mr. REID. Just how do you want to make that? Mr. BORDEN. Any time you get water up above its normal flow so you can develop a head you can develop all four of them. Suppose it is only 10 feet Mr. REID (interrupting). How do you want to do that and how do you want to divide that water stored there? Senator SWING. Unless we get rid of the first question it is no use discussing the second one. Mr. REID. If we are going to agree we are going to build a dam, we ought to know how it is going to be built. Mr. SWING. The latter part is how it is going to be built, whether with cement or I Mr. REID (interrupting). No; I don't mean the type of construction. mean whether it is going to be built for a power dam or whether it is going to be build for flood control or whether it is for a storage reservoir or whether it is going to be a combination dam to develop power and store those waters and how we are going to divide the water and the power. Senator SWING. Well, the question is one of construction. Senator SWING. Even the size of it is a matter for the Government; it isn't a matter for our determination, but whatever dam is constructed there should be constructed immediately and it should be constructed at or near this point. That is all we are concerned in. Mr. REID. Would you be in favor of constructing a dam at Boulder Canyon which would be a power dam alone? Senator SWING. That isn't a question for me to determine. question which this delegation will have to determine. That isn't a Mr. REID. I mean would your delegation be in favor of that? Senator SWING. That isn't a question that this delegation will have to determine. Mr. REID. It seems to me you would have some influence in that. Senator SWING. Whatever dam is constructed Nevada wants it constructed at once at that point at the earliest possible opportunity, and we agree on that. Mr. REID. As I understand, Nevada has two points instead of one. Mr. REID. That is two dam sites you have in mind? Mr. SQUIRES. It is all the same. Perhaps they have made examinations at three or four or half a dozen different sites in the same general canyon, in the same locality, with a view of getting the best foundation conditions and ascertaining where is the most feasible site. It is all the same thing. COLORADO RIVER BASIN Mr. REID. Why, Mr. Squires, you say you didn't, but the other gentleman there did state our answer wasn't specific enough. Just in what respect isn't our answer specific enough? Mr. SQUIRES. It says you are ready to negotiate with regard to the construction of a dam at Boulder Canyon on some other site. Mr. REID. We have stated we are ready to negotiate with regard to the construction of a dam on the river anywhere which might be beneficial to the We don't care where the place is. parties interested. most feasible there, I assume we would all be for it. why we should not. If it is found it is Mr. MADDOCK. May I ask this question, Mr. Swing? Suppose the engineers of the Government that are now engaged by the Government were not for Boulder Canyon as an initial development but for some other point, do you think in our acquiescence to withdrawing all objection, which we do not admit exists, we should also say we should do everything we can to overcome present governmental engineers' opinions of some other point? We are about in the same position as you would if we should ask you, California and Nevada, to withdraw all objections to Diamond Creek site and immediately you would feel up in the air, I presume. We know exactly Mr. SWING. No; I don't think we would be up in the air. I assume you know pretty well what this other subject what we mean. means. Mr. REID. We think we do and that is the reason we want to find out what he wants us to answer specifically. Mr. FINNEY. May I make an inquiry here? Suppose you define a little more definitely the construction and the manner of building and the control. Mr. REID. That is the point exactly. Mr. FINNEY. Just supposing we say, and perhaps it may be agreeable to Nevada that you should favor the construction of a dam at or near Boulder Canyon, that is the way the engineers have expressed it, and that is a matter that we, you, nor I can determine in this negotiation, but the general location that you would be satisfied to support a dam at or near Boulder Canyon would confine 25,000,000 acre-feet of water, which would be constructed by Government influence, owned and controlled by the Government. Would not that be a definite proposition? Mr. REID. It would be quite definite and I think the committee would be in favor of construction at Boulder Canyon, if after we work out the details Mr. FINNEY. What details? Nevada has asked you simply to agree to that in principle, not as to how wide or thick the walls should be or just where the abutment should be placed, but just asking an agreement in principle. Mr. REID. No; I think not, because an agreement in principle would involve an agreement in detail, because if we agree to go into an agreement to build a reservoir at Boulder Canyon we might be ready to do that provided we knew how the water was going to be distributed, and provided we knew how the power was going to be distributed and the control over that dam. Mr. FINNEY. I suggest a Government control and that would suggest a manner of working out the division of the water, the allocation of the water, and the development of power and also the division of power. Mr. REID. We could agree whether we wanted government control or whether we didn't want government control. Mr. FINNEY. I have suggested what California really wanted with reference to that when it undertook Mr. REID. Now, isn't it a fact that the thing that California is interested in in any construction on the river up there is flood control; second, regulation of water supply; and third, division of such flood water as that dam may store; and fourth. the division of the power, or the allocation of the power as it might be developed. Aren't those the things that you are interested in? Mr. FINNEY. Yes. Mr. REID. Now the means that you arrive at that Mr. FINNEY (interrupting). The distribution of water would have to be controlled by a division of the water in the lower basin. Mr. REID. That is all we ask you gentlemen to do, is to say specifically how you want that done and we will give you a definite answer. Mr. FINNEY. That can't be done until we dispose of all other questions, like first claim upon the water- Mr. REID (interrupting). That is the way we feel about it. 72578-26-PT 618 |