The CHAIRMAN. Have you made an estimate of the quantity of water you would require daily to be pumped for domestic purposes? Mr. WARD. We have the ultimate demand of Los Angeles and these cities who are really shorter of domestic water than we are; our surrounding cities are suffering more than we are. We ultimately estimate 1,500 second-feet, probably half for the city of Los Angeles a thousand for the city of Los Angeles and 500 for these adjacent towns. We will not need that all at once, but we will probably in the next generation need that full amount. As I understand, 1,500 second feet would be between an eighth and a tenth of the entire equated flow of the Colorado River at the Boulder Canyon. It would be applying for an allocation of about one-eighth to onetenth of the entire supply for the city of Los Angeles and these other coastal cities.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the annual flow?

Mr. WARD. That is, the annual flow is equated. I understand that the dam will store 28,000,000 acre-feet, a 250-foot dam.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the entire length of your aqueduct? Mr. WARD. Something around 250 miles; I don't know it exactly. The CHAIRMAN. Have you made an estimate of the construction cost of this aqueduct?

Mr. WARD. It had been made to our committee; our committee has not, but it has been made by the engineering force.

The CHAIRMAN. What is that estimate?

Mr. WARD. I will have to think a moment to get it. The statement made to us is this, that the burden per capita upon the city of Los Angeles upon the Owens River project was $150 per capita, the cost of that canal at that time; and by the time this canal is completed we estimate that our population will have reached a million and a half population-we have something over a million now-by the time it is completed we will reach a million and a half, and of course the per capita would be no greater than the original cost of this present aqueduct, which would make the charge somewhere around $200,000,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Those figures are interesting; they are comparative. Have you some figures obtainable that would show the proposed cost of the construction of the aqueduct ?

Senator JOHNSON. I think we will present them, Mr. Chairman. Mr. WARD. I am not really prepared to speak on those subjects, only on the round figure that the cost per capita would not be any greater when the project is completed than it was upon the completion of our present aqueduct.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it the opinion of your committee that the only place you can get the water is at Boulder Canyon or Needles?

Mr. WARD. At the Colorado River. We were not thinking so much about the supply of water at Boulder Canyon rather than some better location. Whatever money is advanced by the Government they will want paid out of our revenues, and we adopted that as the location which would produce the greatest revenue from the available market closest to it. It is not a question of getting water enough; water enough is supposed to be available at either, but the cost of this dam as compared with the other dam, the amount of water that could be stored at it, and the amount of fall that is

obtained seem to be considered by our committee; but the committee did not desire to commit themselves on the location.

The CHAIRMAN. Would the cost of lifting the water 1,700 feet and conducting it many miles through the aqueduct bring about an increase in the water charge for domestic uses?

Mr. WARD. I think so. Just a moment on that point. The city of Los Angeles to-day brings its water 250 miles through two mountain ranges and across a desert, and has 42 miles of granite tunnel in it, and yet we have brought that water here for the last five years, and have sold that water in this market at 10 cents a hundred cubic feet, whereas no other water supply in the State has been able to do anything like that. The city of San Francisco is selling its water at 27 cents for a hundred cubic feet as against 10 cents here, and yet we have been at this enormous cost of going this great distance and building this expensive canal. It shows you that properly administered large quantities of water can be brought from great distances and undersell the home-grown supply such as in San Francisco and Oakland. They pay from 27 to 30 cents a hundred cubic feet as against our 10 cents.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you made an approximation of the cost of water to be taken out of the Colorado River?

Mr. WARD. Yes; the approximation of cost is that we will be able to undersell any city on the coast after doing that. Now, I can't tell you exactly-Mr. Mulholland will be able to give you that information exactly, but way under our sister cities' water supplies after doing this; and they seem to be getting along paying that present price and prospering.

The CHAIRMAN. Has there been any regulation to conserve the water used in Los Angeles and surrounding communities because of the shortage of supply?

Mr. WARD. Oh, yes; last year we had an inadequate supply; would have had an inadequate supply except by very cautious use of our water, but last year was an extremely low year. But notwithstanding the fact that it was a low year and our available hydro-power was very curtailed, very greatly reduced and we had to go on a curtailed basis here for months, about 25 per cent curtailment-this report of the chief engineer of the Railroad Commission shows that during the last three and one-half years our power load and our power demand in southern California has increased at the rate of a little over 50,000 kilowatts per year, or about 66,000 horsepower, growing each year. Now, that is an enormous rate of growth. I don't know of any other place that compares with it anywhere. But when you admit that we are growing at that rate in our demand, you can easily see that we can absorb this power and have money enough to pay the Government its full bill with interest. And I am quite sure that the city of Los Angeles stands ready to take the whole supply of power from that dam if they are requested to, or to take any portion of it and pay their prorated proportion of their cost of this dam. We would like to have it over as long a period as possible so that the amortization charge will be as low as possible. Senator KENDRICK. Are you able to inform the committee as to the present volume of water used by the city of Los Angeles?

Mr. WARD. Yes, sir.

Senator KENDRICK. Measured in cubic feet per second?

Mr. WARD. Yes, sir; we have an average of 264 feet at present from the aqueduct. We have about 139 feet, or something around 150, I am not quite certain, about 150 feet available otherwise; so we at present have about 420 or 430 second-feet that are available.

Senator KENDRICK. Under this plan you would expect to receive a thousand feet per second from the Colorado River?

Mr. WARD. We would expect a thousand more than we now have for our own use, probably 500 extra feet for surrounding communities that are in grave need of additional domestic water.

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Ward, according to your statement, the present plan of the city of Los Angeles would be to lift the water some 1,700 feet?

Mr. WARD. Yes; I understand so.

Senator ASHURST. Let me say that the United States Government no later than 12 days ago issued its authoritative water-supply paper, pointing out to you that a perpetual and abundant supply of drinking water is available by gravity, if you put your dam at Bridge Canyon. I hope you will read this Government report. Mr. WARD. I will be glad to read that.

Senator ASHURST. You can get an abundant, perpetual supply of water by gravity.

Mr. WARD. Does it give the expense of so doing?

Senator ASHURST. Not much greater than the expense of installing the pumping plant at the point you mention and, of course, you will be required to maintain and to operate-to pay the enormous expense of pumping, lifting 1,700 feet.

Mr. WARD. If that can be demonstrated to the satisfaction of capable engineers, it will be very weighty.

Senator ASHURST. The United States Government usually employs expert and efficient engineers. And, after a year of careful investigation, the Secretary of the Interior promulgates this document as the latest, most authoritative expression of the United States of America.

Mr. WARD. I was not aware of that; I knew something of that kind was being prepared.

Senator ASHURST. I would direct your attention to pages 45, 71, and 77, and other pages.

Mr. WARD. I have relied chiefly-our committee has relied chieflyupon the data that it has had upon the previous reports of the Reclamation Department and the United States Reclamation Service, chiefly the reports of Mr. Weymouth and Mr. Davis, and they have recommended the Boulder Canyon Dam as the preferable site, and it was recommended after a great many years of study and a great deal of money had been expended in studying the Colo

rado River.

Senator ASHURST. I have the highest regard for those gentlemen, but they will find themselves in the situation I often find myself, that, unfortunately, I didn't know it all.

Mr. WARD. There is no assumption upon the part of our committee that we know it all. We are very glad to get any kind of help we can.

Senator PITTMAN. Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Pittman.

Senator PITTMAN. I think we might just as well read the exact language of the portion referred to:

It is the writer's opinion that it may be feasible to build a high dam at Bridge Canyon, a gravity system to furnish domestic water supply for the cities of southern California.

Mr. WARD. "It may be feasible."

Senator ASHURST. Will my esteemed friend also read the excerpt on the other pages?

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to conclude your statement, Mr. Ward?

Mr. WARD. Yes: thank you.

Senator ASHURST. My friend is an able lawyer and can extract a

sentence

Mr. WARD. Gentlemen, I would like to leave with the committee the personnel of this committee so they will be able to determine the character of the men who made this report.

The CHAIRMAN. Is Mr. A. M. Souden in the room, chairman of the board of directors of the United States National Bank?

Mr. SOUDEN. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. You are to discuss the attitude of the Los Angeles business interests upon this proposed development. Mr. SOUDEN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may proceed.

STATEMENT OF 0. M. SOUDEN, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF THE UNITED STATES NATIONAL BANK

Mr. SOUDEN. In order to conserve your time, I will limit my discussion to a very few words.

The present situation is similar to that which existed in the city from 1900 to 1905. Our city in 1905 had an estimated population of 170,000 and we found at that time that we were completely utilizing all of the resources of our watershed and it was necessary for our city to seek additional water supply if we were to continue to grow. Many different sources of water supply were investigated by committees and engineers and ultimately the Owens Valley was decided upon as being the logical point from which to secure an adequate supply of water. The matter of bringing water more than 250 miles across a desert, through three mountain ranges and yet being able to deliver water to the consumer at a price which would be economical, was a stupendous project. Los Angeles at that time had only limited resources and was known primarily as a city of climate because our manufacturing industry was of nominal importance: in fact, Bank Credit Managers hardly recognized Los Angeles as a manufacturing community.

Twenty-five million dollars was our initial investment in the present acqueduct-it appeared to be a staggering sum. When the realize that the resources of the local banks were only four times that amount, we are quite sure that almost anyone would hesitate and thoroughly investigate the situation before giving assent to creating such a debt. However, the debt was created; the bonds were sold: the aqueduct was built and has been operated successfully

and our city has grown until we now have a population of 1,200,000 people and in 1924 our bank clearings were in excess of $7,000,000,000, with exchanges on local banks of more than $7,250,000,000, and our manufactured products sold in the open market during the year 1924 for $1,200,000,000. Since we built our acqueduct we have developed and completely financed a harbor which has no superior and is handling freight and passenger traffic which gives it third place in the shipping of the United States. Our building permits for the first nine months of 1925 were $115,000,000, and for Southern California, (by that I mean the territory that would be benefited by the Boulder Dam), the building permits totaled $207,000,000. A people who can build into this sum must be possessed of large financial means.

So much for our population, resources, and ability to successfully complete our part of this undertaking.

The present generation ought to use daily all of the water and hydroelectric energy now developed and delivered to our city. We realize that a city can not stand still, but must continue to grow or it will suffer a decrease in population, commercial importance, and financial strength; thus we must provide additional water and electricity or the coming generation will have cause to censure us.

With all of these facts in mind, our investigations lead us in many directions, but we always return to the Colorado River, where our engineers assure us is water in abundance and hydroelectric energies can be developed for our needs and the needs of our neighbors.

Our citizens upon numerous occasions have reaffirmed their intention to operate and distribute in the municipality certain public utilities, notably water, power, and light. We are to-day operating a great electric generation, transmission, and distributing system. Our capital invested is more than $35,000,000. Through this agency our growth has been phenomenal. Water, power, and light are distributed to our citizens and service furnished to industrial enterprises at a very low rate.

The effect of the tremendous growth of our city was manifested two years ago, when the necessity arose for the complete rebuilding and strengthening of the electric distributing system. To accomplish this result a committee of business men was formed, known as the citizens' power bond committee, whose function was to present to the people all possible information so that they would authorize the issuance of the necessary bonds for the completion of the work. The members of the citizens' power bond committee were carefully selected, so that all classes of citizens had ample representation thereon. We gave particular attention to the subject of the requirements of the city of Los Angeles with regard to a power supply and its use for the people within its boundaries. We learned of the great needs of our city and approximated the burden requisite for our citizens to assume to secure that which was necessary.

As a result of our experience and investigation we are in a position, representative of the business men of Los Angeles, to assure the Committee on Irrigation and Reclamation that the people in Los Angeles (you understand no great work ever had the unanimous cooperation of all the people under the project) are now very