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Senator Johnson. Yes; they are found at page 319 of the record. Inasmuch as they are there, I will not trouble you further.

Mr. CARPENTER. Those were the figures, Senator, at the time of the Santa Fe conference. They would be in some degree modified by more recent studies, but generally they are correct.

Senator JOHNSON. In your testimony did you state on any occasion the maximum flow of the Colorado within any given time?

Mr. CARPENTER. I did not. I have understood that it was upward of 200,000 second-feet.

Senator Johnson. Would you tell me, if you please, for the record what, if any, official position you occupy in reference to the State of Colorado?

Mr. CARPENTER. I am appointed by the governor to negotiate compacts with sister States on five interstate rivers, one of which is the Colorado. I have no title by statute but they call me the interstate rivers compact commission.

Senator JOHNSON. You speak therefore with authority and officially for the State?

Mr. CARPENTER. To some degree; yes, sir. Senator Johnson. Do you speak with the same authority and officially for the other upper basin States?

Mr. CARPENTER. Not at all.

Senator Johnson. Have the upper basin States' representatives met here in Washington since the beginning of this hearing for the purpose of determining their policy?

Mr. CARPENTER. There has been no caucus. They have gotten together several times in open discussion, but there has been no meeting where a definite program was mapped out...

Senator Johnson. No policy has been determined upon by them? Mr. CARPENTER. No. There is a sort of common understanding.

Senator JOHNSON. The common understanding being that they would insist upon the ratification of the seven-State pact!

Senator JOHNSON. Was that your suggestion ?
Senator JOHNSON. Whose ?

Mr. CARPENTER. It meets with my approval. I do not know at whose suggestion it was made.

Senator JOHNSON. Well, was not it your suggestion, Mr. Carpenter?

Mr. CARPENTER. I do not recall having suggested it. I certainly would have done so if the occasion had arisen.

Senator JOHNSON. Do you know whose suggestion it was?

Mr. CARPENTER. No; I do not recall. That is the common feeling in the upper basin country.

Senator JOHNSON. I realize that, and I realize it from the testimony that has been given here. Did you say something about the length of time that would elapse before the water they apportioned to the upper basin States would be utilized by them?

Mr. CARPENTER. I said that the length of time that would elapse would be, of course, a matter of conjecture, but it would be quite a remote period before that country would be developed.

Senator JOHNSON. A century, or a century and a half?

Mr. CARPENTER. A century or a century and a half-from 50 to 100 years, anyhow.

Senator JOHNSON. At the very minimum from 50 to 100 years, and it might be two centuries?

Mr. CARPENTER. Depending upon the press of population and the improvement of transportation.

Senator Johnson. You were present with the committee in Imperial Valley, were you not?

Mr. CARPENTER. I was-I was not there all the time, but I was there in town. I did not attend the hearings.

Senator JOHNSON. You realize that it is a pressing problem that those people have, do you not?


Senator JOHNSON. And that there is extreme peril to them, do you not, from the Colorado?

Mr. CARPENTER. I am fully aware of it?

Senator JOHNSON. And that there are some 50,000 or 60,000 American citizens there whom it is necessary to protect if we can legitimately do so?

Mr. CARPENTER. There is quite a population.

Senator Johnson. And action is essential for their protection, is it not?

Mr. CARPENTER. Undoubtedly, in the form of levees or reservoirs.

Senator Johnson. Well, are you familiar with the levee situation down there?

Mr. CARPENTER. I am; that is, I have viewed those levees.

Senator JOHNSON. And you know that they are built practically to the height of safety?

Mr. CARPENTER. I have heard it said that that is true. I am not familiar with the records.

Senator Johnson. And the only place they can turn for relief is to the Congress of the United States, is it not?

Mr. CARPENTER. Certainly, and we are willing to join when they protect us.

Senator Johnson. Then I take it from what you have said that you are quite as anxious as we are for their protection-anxious, I mean, for the protection as well of the State that you represent in the allocation of the water of the Colorado?

Mr. CARPENTER. Every principle of humanity would impel one to be anxious for their safety.

Senator JOHNSON. So that you have here a principle of humanity that demands action by the Congress of the United States if it be possible, have you not?

Mr. CARPENTER. You have, provided that by so doing the Congress does not put other matters into a state of chaos.

Senator JOHNSON. Exactly. But if it be within the realm of possibility Congress should act for the protection of these Americans who have builded an empire in the Imperial Valley and those at Yuma, too, should it not?

Mr. CARPENTER. In due course; yes.

Senator Johnson. Of course, it will be in due course, and if the peril is to be lessened, it will be at once. That is all.

Senator GOODING. Mr. Carpenter, would there be any difficulty now in signing up the six-State compact if California withdraws its reservations?

Mr. CARPENTER. None at all. The statutes approving that plan stand unrepealed on the books of the five States that is, all the upper basin States and also the State of Nevada.

Senator JOHNSON. And would you then favor this project and assist us in obtaining it?

Mr. CARPENTER. What do you mean by "you"!
Senator JOHNSON. I mean you of the State of Colorado.

Mr. CARPENTER. As far as I am concerned, you would have my assistance, and as far as my influence would go I would be glad to aid.

Senator JOHNSON. But you are aware of the fact, are you not, that the upper basin States require as a condition precedent the ratification of the seven-State compact ?

Mr. CARPENTER. I am thoroughly aware of that fact.

Senator JOHNSON. But you personally, I understand, have the view that if we should have a six-State compact you would aid in the endeavor that we are making here?

Mr. CARPENTER. As a personal matter, I would say this: That another series of efforts should be made to conclude a seven-State compact. That failing, then it would be better to proceed on the sixState plan rather than indefinitely postpone this matter.

Senator GOODING. Mr. Carpenter, I may say that Idaho is vitally interested in this question. We are not interested in the waters, we do not share them in any way, but we are very much interested in the development of southern California, because it is our market. So we are very anxious that this matter should be brought to a settlement. California in a very short time, calling its legislature together, can settle this question so that we can proceed with this legislation. Is not that correct?

Mr. CARPENTER. That is true.
Senator GOODING. And without it it can not be done?

Mr. CARPENTER. Without it it can not be done in this sense, that we feel the matter is involved in so much doubt that we do not care to proceed with the present plan.

Senator GOODING. Do you feel it safe to say that if California withdraws its reservations this legislation can go on?

Mr. CARPENTER. That is my belief.

Senator KENDRICK. Provided, of course, that Congress ratifies the six-State compact?

Mr. CARPENTER. Provided, of course, that Congress ratifies the compact as effective among the six and makes it binding and effective upon the Government property on the river.

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Chairman, in view of certain statements made by the able Senator from California (Mr. Shortridge) and the papers which he has read, I must ask for a moment to discuss he same.

The Senator read from the enabling act, that is to say, the act of Congress authorizing the people of Arizona to adopt a constitution ind to erect the territory into a State. The enabling act laid cerain restrictions. We were required to adopt certain ordinances.

discussion of the question as to how Arizona could be admitted into the Union upon an equal footing with all the other States with such limitations put upon us, is a question which I pass for a future discussion. It is an act of considerable presumption for me to engage in a legal duel with such lawyers as the senior Seantor from California and the junior Senator from California, leaders at the bar in their State.

I read from the enabling act:

There is hereby reserved to the United States and exempted from the operation of any and all grants made or confirmed by this act to said proposed State all land actually or prospectively valuable for the development of water powers or power for hydroelectric use or transmission and which shall be ascertained and designated by the Secretary of the Interior within five years after the proclamation of the President declaring the admission of the State; and no lands so reserved and excepted shall be subject to any

What? “Disposition." Do not make a rush for the dictionary to find out what the word “disposition means; it means to dis

pose of

shall be subject to any disposition whatever by said State.

The act goes on and shows that it means to say: “Dispose of." for instance:

And any conveyance or transfer of such land by said State or any officer thereof shall be absolutely null and void within the period above named.

In other words, Arizona is simply prohibited from disposing of those lands. The Federal Government adopts that construction. A citizen of the State of Arizona filed an application for a license or permit to generate hydroelectric power on the Colorado River on the Arizona side. That application is now pending before the Federal Power Commission, and the Federal Power Commission has already admitted that no license which the Federal Government could issue would be of any force, effect, or validity unless and until Arizona also gave a permit or license to that same citizen to construct such hydroelectric power plant. The principle of contemporaneous practical construction applies.

Now, the Senator says the Colorado River is navigable. If it be navigable, then under the law the bed of the river belongs to Arizona. That is to say, as to that portion of the river that is in Arizona the bed belongs to Arizona, and where the river divides Arizona and California, Arizona owns the bed of the river from the bank thereof to the thread of the stream. It is nowhere admitted that Arizona ever surrendered the bed of the Colorado River, and it is virtually conceded that the beds of streams in such cases belong to the State sovereignty. It belongs to the State of Arizona.

Now, just one ad hominum statement. Every man and woman of conscience believes that the Imperial Valley should be rescued from its present position of peril.

Senator JOHNSON. And you might add Yuma, too.

Senator ASHURST. And Yuma. "I am in favor of the all-American canal. Arizona asks that this dam be placed 'high enough up the river so that we can irrigate our uplands. The Colorado River is Arizona's jugular vein; sever our jugular vein and we die. We have asked you in polite language and we now ask in vehement language to build the dam far enough up the river.


Senator SHORTRIDGE. Mr. Chairman, my good friend from Arizona remarked that he did not purpose arguing the legal phases of the question, nor do I. I offered these laws for the purpose of future discussion. I certainly do not agree with the conclusions reached by my learned friend.

Senator Ashurst. Do you think “disposition" means other than to dispose of?

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Why, that subject has been discussed for many years, under that provision of the Constitution which gives Congress control over the public lands.

The Senator does himself a great injustice. Mr. Chairman, when he says it is a presumption on his part to discuss a legal question with my colleague and myself. Indeed, I should tremble to discuss such a question with the distinguished Senator from Arizona.

Senator Johnson. Mr. Chairman, I simply want to add that they all love us very well, but they chastise us in this matter.

The CHAIRMAN, Now, Mr. Carpenter, I think you have concluded your statement and answered all the questions save one or two-one that Senator Jones of Washington wishes to ask and one by Senator: Bratton.

Senator Jones of Washington. Mr. Carpenter, if the six-State pact were entered into, would that in any way interfere with the rights of Arizona or in any way tend to prevent her from asserting any rights which she may have and prevent her from causing any delay that she might otherwise be enabled to effect through the courts?


Senator BRATTON. Mr. Carpenter, you have indicated some familiarity with conditions in New Mexico in connection with your statement a while ago that the amount of water you use in that State is negligible. What, if you are able to furnish the information, is the approximate amount of land in the San Juan Valley in New Mexico that is subject to irrigation from the Colorado?

Mr. CARPENTER. It is very large. I have heard it estimated at anywhere from 250,000 up to 750,000 acres, according to how much of the Indian reservation was taken in.

Senator BRATTON. Assuming that the Indian reservation is taken in and its lands are subject to irrigation, what would be the total acreage of the San Juan Valley in New Mexico subject to irrigation ?

Mr. CARPENTER. As I say, somewhere from half a million to threequarters of a million. Senator, I have not been over that territory in detail. I was there and looked it over generally, but as I understand the table that Mr. Meeker has compiled and those in the record, he included the Indian lands as part of that project.

Senator BRATTON. Directing your attention to the Gila River, are you familiar with that in the southwestern part of the State?


Senator BRATTON. I think you stated two or three minutes ago that approximately an acreage of 75,000 was subject to irrigation in New Mexico from the Gila River.

Mr. CARPENTER. The State engineer of New Mexico so advised me. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Carpenter, Congressman Leatherwood, of Utah, would like to propound a question to you.

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