Representative VINSON. The main reason, Mr. Chairman, for that was to avoid the control features of the Comptroller General. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I understand that that is true.

Representative VINSON. Now, of course, under your set-up the control features would apply to these activities.

Mr. GULICK. Unless it is specifically exempted. It would be possible to set up somebody, but in that case, when the control feature is removed from the Auditor General, then there is less reason for taking some of these groups out from under his audit.

Representative VINSON. Then you will see some real battles in regard to these agencies when their activities are criticized and curtailed by the Treasury.

Mr. GULICK. That is correct.

Senator BYRD. Mr. Gulick, why is there less reason for that? I do not exactly gather that. You mean that this new unit that you will set up will not be as diligent?

Mr. GULICK. No; they have no power to delay action, no power to substitute their judgment in the case of interpreting appropriations. Senator BYRD. You mean you do not provide any preaudit or pre

control?

Mr. GULICK. No, no, no; we provide that under the Executive acting through the fiscal control agencies.

Senator BYRD. As I understand it you expect this new agency— I am speaking of the control agency

Mr. GULICK (interrupting). I am speaking of the auditing agency, which is the one the Congressman mentioned.

Senator BYRD. To be more lenient and be less protective than the present agency?

Mr. GULICK. You are speaking of the control agency?

Senator BYRD. Yes. If this is much more protective in its results what is going to be accomplished from your viewpoint?

Mr. GULICK. Because it will be subject to appeal to a responsible officer.

Senator BYRD. To the President?

Mr. GULICK. To the President.

Representative TABER. Subject to appeal to the Secretary of the

Treasury.

Senator BYRD. He said finally that the President would decide. Mr. GULICK. The President is responsible for the action of the Secretary of the Treasury.

Senator BYRD. Mr. Chairman, I have got to leave, unfortunately, but I would just like to ask Mr. Gulick one question, which is not in line with the questions that we have been asking about, and that is from the standpoint of irresponsibility of officials and agencies. I would like to ask him where he feels the Interstate Commerce Commission belongs, as to whether it is a responsible or irresponsible agency.

Mr. GULICK. That is a regulatory agency. Certain of its functions fall within the legislative function, and it might even be held that certain of its activities fall into the judicial field. It is a mixed

agency which at the present time is not primarily responsible to the Executive.

Representative VINSON. Why, haven't you the right of appeal to the courts from their orders? According to your definition it would be a responsible agency.

Senator BYRD. His definition of responsibility is direct political responsibility to the people, as I understand him. He stated his position in regard to the Supreme Court.

Representative VINSON. That is just one. The other was where there was an appeal, a certain order of the Interstate Commerce Commission in regard to rates, and he said things of that kind would be taken care of.

The CHAIRMAN. He makes the point that there are some adminis trative duties, like the administrative duties of an executive, that are neither legislative nor judicial, that some of its functions are one and some the other.

Senator BYRD. As at present constituted, you regard it, under your definition, as an irresponsible agency?

Mr. GULICK. No; it is in a mixed position.

Senator BYRD. Exactly. Now, how different is it from the Supreme Court? You say that is irresponsible.

Mr. GULICK. Well, there is an appeal from its activities, an appeal from its decisions, certainly, on the judicial side.

Senator BYRD. You think that is a responsible agency, as it now exists, under your definition?

Mr. GULICK. I say it is in a mixed position.

Senator BYRD. Exactly. Now, how different is it from the Supreme Court? You say that is irresponsible.

Mr. GULICK. Well, there is an appeal from its activities, an appeal from its decisions, certainly on the judicial side.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. You think that that is a responsible agency as it now exists, under your definition?

Mr. GULICK. I say it has a mixed position.

Senator BYRD. Well, is it responsible or irresponsible, under your definition?

Mr. GULICK. It is partially responsible and partially irresponsible, under my definition.

Senator BYRD. The same thing applies then to the Federal Power Commission, the Radio Commission, the Securities Exchange, and all the other independent commissions, that they are half responsible and half irresponsible; is that it?

Mr. GULICK. Well, they are in a very difficult field in which it is impossible to classify them definitely on any one of these categorical bases. The courts have not answered and nobody knows. As you know, suggestions have been made in the past that they be made more responsible with reference to their administrative decisions. That is the view of the President's committee. That was the view suggested by President Hoover in his message to the Congress. That was the recommendation of Governor Lowden with reference to reorganization here in Washington years ago. So that is not a new problem; it is an old problem. It is not an easy problem; it is an extremely difficult problem.

Senator BYRD. You classified the Supreme Court as an irresponsible branch of the Government because it has no appeal from its decisions.

Mr. GULICK. I said I do not really know anything about the judicial branch of the Government and am not in a position to dis

cuss it.

Senator BYRD. But you classified it as an irresponsible agency.

Mr. GULICK. I referred to a political officer, an officer of the Government from whom there was no effective appeal either through political channels or through administrative channels, that is, in effect, an irresponsible officer.

Senator BYRD. Your theory of government then would be that the decision of the Supreme Court would be subject to revocation by the people?

Mr. GULICK. No.

Senator BYRD. How would you get an appeal then from the Supreme Court? That is the court of final resort.

Mr. GULICK. It may be that in the judicial field that is the only procedure you can follow.

Senator BYRD. But you say it is an irresponsible agency. That is what I am getting at.

The CHAIRMAN. Irresponsible in the sense that there is no appeal from its decisions.

Representative BEAM. You mean by the term "irresponsible" that it is absolute?

Mr. GULICK. It is final.

Representative BEAM. It is final, it concludes the case?

Mr. GULICK. In all practical effect it is final.

Representative VINSON. I suggest that you find a word for "irresponsible."

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. That goes back to the beginning of the inquiry, as to how he uses the term.

Senator BYRD. You say the Comptroller General is irresponsible because his word is final. Well, he is not final if he abuses his power because he may be removed by Congress.

Representative COCHRAN. You can go to the Court of Claims with an appeal from the Comptroller General.

Senator BYRD. There are a number of cases that have been appealed from the Comptroller General to the Court of Claims, and other courts.

Mr. GULICK. In all practical effect his action with reference to the department, his disallowance of disbursing agents, his interpretation of the policy of the department, the department has no opportunity to secure a reversal of that except by getting down on its knees to persuade him to change his mind.

Senator BYRD. Well, we suggest an appeal to the Court of Claims. You say that is not practical.

Mr. GULICK. I say that is not practical with the general run of administrative questions. It is the practical method, though, in many cases. It results in great injustice when the individual has a complaint, such as the Army officer's wife who has been disallowed

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some allowance because of the Comptroller General's opinion; she can go to the Court of Claims.

Senator BYRD. Don't you think the Court of Claims would establish a policy that the Comptroller General would follow?

Mr. GULICK. That is just the difficulty.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair is informed that members who are representing the House of Representatives on the committee find it necessary to proceed to the House on account of the business now in progress in the House. If there is no objection the committee will stand adjourned subject to the call of the Chair.