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REORGANIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENTS

THURSDAY, MARCH 11, 1937

JOINT COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION,
Washington, D. C.

The joint committee met, Senator Robinson presiding. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. Representative COCHRAN. Mr. Chairman, before you proceed, I think the record shows that the Speaker of the House has named Hon. Harry Beam, of Illinois, a member of the House committee, and also a member of the joint committee.

The CHAIRMAN. I understood that that had been done. We will be very glad to have Mr. Beam in the proceedings.

STATEMENT OF A. E. BUCK, PRESIDENT'S COMMITTEE STAFF

The CHAIRMAN. Will you give the committee your official position, Mr. Buck? You may state what service you are engaged in and what has been your experince in general.

Mr. Buck. I am general staff member of the Institute of Public Administration in New York City and have been for about 20 years. The institute was formerly the New York Bureau of Municipal Research. My chief interest has been public finance, during the 20 years that I have been with the institute.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you engaged in the study of that while you were with the New York Bureau of Municipal Research?

Mr. BUCK. Yes, sir; since I became a member of the staff, 20 years ago.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you state just a little more definitely the line of work that you did while you were with that organization?

Mr. BUCK. Well, I have worked mainly on budget and survey work-that is, investigation of the finances of State and local governments and, to a certain extent, of the finances of the National Government.

The CHAIRMAN. You are on the staff of the President's Committee on Administrative Management at the present time?

Mr. BUCK. Yes; I think the exact title is consultant.

The CHAIRMAN. What duties have you performed as consultant? Mr. Buck. I have studied the financial structure and management and have prepared a report.

The CHAIRMAN. You have studied the financial structure and management of what?

Mr. BUCK. Of the administration of the Government here.
The CHAIRMAN. Federal administration?

Mr. BUCK. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you prepared this morning to make something of a comparison between the plan that is now pursued with

respect to accounting for expenditures and that which is proposed in the committee's report and recommendation?

Mr. Buck. Yes, sir. I came with some charts to do that.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. You may proceed in your own way. Senator HARRISON. May I ask him a question, Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator HARRISON. Before you began work with this President's committee did you work in Washington studying Government reform and Government machinery?

Mr. BUCK. Yes; I have been here from time to time since 1921, when the Budget and Accounting Act was passed, and I have been here several months with the Budget Bureau.

Senator HARRISON. How long did you work for the Budget Bureau?

Mr. Buck. Oh, I think from September 1934 to May 1935.
The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed.

Senator BYRNES. Before you do, Mr. Buck, would you mind stating whether you have served in the capacity of consultant in the reorganization of any State governments?

Mr. BUCK. Yes; quite a number.

Senator BYRNES. What States?

Mr. BUCK. Well, Maine most recently, I suppose, Tennessee, Virginia, New York, and I made surveys in a number of other States. Senator BYRNES. North Carolina?

Mr. Buck. I have done some work in North Carolina; yes.
Senator TOWNSEND. Delaware?

Mr. BUCK. Yes. That was away back in 1919, as I recall.
Senator TOWNSEND. All right, Mr. Buck.

Mr. BUCK. I have some charts here which I would like to distribute to members of the committee, showing the proposed system of expenditure control under the recommendations of the President's committee.

Representative TABER. Is this a picture of the situation as it is today, or something that you have in mind-some program that you have in mind?

Mr. Buck. This is what is proposed; and, of course, it is keyed in to the present system.

Representative TABER. Do you have a picture of what it is now? Mr. Buck. Yes. Perhaps we should talk about this one first and then take up the other picture, or would you care to have the other one first?

Representative TABER. Go ahead on this one. I will not interrupt you. Go ahead.

Mr. BUCK. Here is an explanatory statement that gives more in detail, probably, the line of procedure. Representative TABER. On this chart?

Mr. BUCK. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, go ahead, Mr. Buck, and make your explanation.

Mr. Buck. This chart, as you will note, is divided into two fields. The upper part of it is called the District of Columbia, the lower part is called the field; that is, the agencies outside of Washington.

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It is also notable that on the left-hand side of the chart are the executive and administrative offices, and on the right-hand side is the Congress and the proposed Auditor General and his regional auditing offices. Also, in connection with the Congress, there is the proposed Joint Committee on Public Accounts.

The reason for setting this chart up in this way is to show the interrelationship that should exist between the Congress on the one hand and the Executive on the other, in the control of the expenditure of appropriations. It brings out this rather interesting fact, that Congress makes the appropriations starting at no. 1 at the top, to the right, which go to the Executive for his approval and for transmission to the Treasury Department.

Representative TABER, You left out the first starting point, where the Budget is submitted to Congress by the Executive.

Mr. Buck. Well, this is entitled just "Expenditure control.”
Representative TABER. I see.

Mr. BUCK. Perhaps that should have been on, too. If it had been included, you would have had this so-called pipe start over there [indicating] with the Executive and go to Congress, and then come back to the Executive in the form of appropriations. The appropriations having been made and having been recorded (3) in the accounting office of the Secretary of the Treasury, which, under this proposed scheme, is called the Bureau of Fiscal Control, those appropriations are then apportioned by the Director of the Budget.

Representative COCHRAN. Are they not apportioned by the Con

gress

Mr. Buck. No; this procedure is under the Antideficiency Act of 1906, and subsequent provisions and orders of the President. It is an executive function now handled by the Bureau of the Budget.

Representative COCHRAN. But really when Congress passes the appropriation act and provides for the spending of money for a spe.cific purpose, is not Congress then apportioning the money? Mr. Buck. It does, by detailed appropriations. Representative COCHRAN. Yes.

Mr. BUCK. But there is more than that to the operation; it extends over the entire fiscal year. The apportionment relates to parts of the year, quarters or months of the year, and also to the subordinate units. Congress may make an appropriation in a lump-sum amount, and then it may be subdivided by the process known as apportion

ment.

Senator TOWNSEND. Then the administrative officers must go up to the Director of the Budget for their apportionment? Mr. BUCK. Yes; that is now the procedure.

Representative TABER. Do they go through the Secretary of the Treasury to the Director of the Budget at the present time? Mr. Buck. Well, for all practical purposes, they do. Representative TABER. Or is this a new scheme?

Mr. Buck. No; it is the same scheme as you have at the present time.

Representative TABER. If that is so, then your Director of the Budget, instead of being an independent agent, becomes subordinate to the Secretary of the Treasury?

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