determining to what extent that should be divided, if it should be divided, or a careful examination of it might indicate that it ought to be left very much as it is, that is a very difficult job. It is not possible to sit down and draw up a complete blueprint for the Government of the United States; and, if you did, undoubtedly within the month that would be required to hear all of those who are interested and who know about the problem, in the month that would be required to work that out, the thing would be out of date by the time the amendment possibly came up.

Senator TOWNSEND. You might change builders in that time, too.

Mr. GULICK. Well, you might change librarians and they will have different ideas about the arrangement of the books, but the basic, main divisions of your structure would probably meet the ideas of any occupant.

Representative GIFFORD. Mr. Gulick, if you want to put in one of those 12 rooms, the Department of Social Welfare, you must know quite well whether or not you think it advisable to put Public Health in there or not.

Mr. GULICK. Yes; and we have indicated that. We have gone that far.

Representative GIFFORD. You have gone far enough to indicate

that?

Mr. GULICK. Yes.

Representative GIFFORD. Then what is the harm in stating that we furnish the majority of activities that may go into that department?

Mr. GULICK. The major framework in that department we endeavored to lay out in specific terms.

Representative GIFFORD. I am not complaining that the major framework is indicated; but there has been a complete dodging in any of the things expressed here as to what particular part of the Government will be put into any of these 12 rooms.

Senator BYRD. You have given, Mr. Gulick, a broad outline of these 12 departments, and if you will consider that in connection with the activities of the different bureaus I think you can pretty nearly group these bureaus now. We will take, for example, the Interior Department. You specify that that Department is "to advise the President with regard to the protection and use of the natural resources of the Nation and the public domain.

"To administer the public lands, parks, territories, and reservations, and enforce the conservation laws with regard to public lands and mineral and water resources, except as otherwise assigned."

I have got a list of 16 agencies which, in my judgment, if you carry out that broad program, will be included in the Interior Department. Senator MONARY. What are they?

Senator BYRD. The Bureau of Insular Affairs, Panama Canal, Bureau of Biological Survey, which is now in the Agricultural Department, Forest Service, Bureau of Fisheries, Arlington Memorial, Commission of Fisheries, Federal Power Commission, Internationaĺ Fisheries Commission, National Park Trust Fund, National Power Policy Commission, National Capital Park and Planning Commission, Perry Victory Memorial Commission, Mexican Claims Commission, Tennessee Valley Authority, Washington National Monument Society.

At the proper time-I do not know that now is the time, Mr. Chairman-but at the proper time I think we should have this information.

Senator MCNARY. That would contemplate creating a new Cabinet Department of Conservation.

Senator BYRD. To carry out the outline for the activities of the departments I submit that these new agencies should be included now, because it specifically states, the outline of activities specifically includes these particular things, and it has been stated time and time again that every single agency of the Government is going to be kept under 1 of these 12 departments, that there is going to be no independent agency.

I do not know that now is the time, Mr. Chairman, but at the proper time I would like to ask questions about each one of the departments along that same line.

Mr. GULICK. We have just one answer to you, Senator. I think Mr. Brownlow will answer that.

Mr. BROWNLOW. We have endeavored to state as strongly as we could in the report that we believe that the allocation of these particular activities to the departments should be a matter of continuous study by an enlarged and expanded research unit in the Bureau of the Budget, and that that power be given to the President. It is difficult and I think would be unwise to attempt to allocate all of them by their names.

As to the particular phrase that Senator Byrd referred to there, he said, "except as otherwise assigned", because it may be better administration to assign some of those activities which apparently might be conservation to agriculture or to commerce or to social welfare, or especially to public works, and we think that that should be a continuous study, and, as the President said in his message, that it should be done not only after this very careful study of each particular activity, but after consultation with those people who are interested in it.

Senator BYRD. Then you see no reason to change the definitions of the powers of the departments as outlined in your report to the President, do you?

Mr. BROWNLOW. Well, we were setting up there a general statement on the 12 departments in order to show that within these 12 tents could be grouped all of these independent agencies.

Senator BYRD. You must have conducted a very considerable investigation to have set up these twelve definitions."

Mr. BROWNLOW. We did not conduct a detailed examination into the operating structure.

Senator BYRD. Let us take a specific instance about which there can be no question. Take the Department of Conservation.

Senator HARRISON. Reforestation would be a good one.

Senator BYRD. "To administer the public lands, parks, territories, and reservations, and enforce the conservation laws with regard to public lands and mineral and water resources, except as otherwise assigned", there can be no question about that.

Mr. BROWNLOW. "Except as otherwise assigned."

Senator BYRD. That is the broad general activity of the Department of Conservation.

Mr. BROWNLOW. It is also true, if you name Conservation, you can bring under it many things from many departments.

Senator BYRD. Do you not assume by this that you will transfer from the Agricultural Department these activities that I have just read?

Mr. BROWNLOW. No, sir.

Senator BYRD. Why did you write the report this way, "To administer"? That is what the Department is going to do, "to administer the public lands, parks, territories, and reservations, and enforce the conservation laws with regard to public lands and mineral and water resources."

Mr. GULICK. Go on.

Mr. BROWNLOW. Go on.

Senator BYRD. "Except as otherwise assigned."
Mr. GULICK. O. K.

Mr. BROWNLOW. We do not think it can be determined without extensive study where the best administration would fall with respect to some particular activities, and we have not made that study. As far as we know, it has not been made.

Senator BYRD. Why did you assume then to determine the powers of these departments at all?

Mr. BROWNLOw. In our report we wanted to show that in the 12 departments you could group all of the activities of the Government, and we were doing it in general terms. Then we say, at the same time, that the particular act of allocation, the particular assignment would depend upon a detailed study and could not be put in such a general statement.

Senator BYRNES. How long, in your opinion, would it take you to make such a study?

Mr. BROWNLOW. I think that the Bureau of the Budget, if it be expanded and enlarged-we have recommended a set-up in the Bureau of the Budget-with a careful examination in order to do this job properly, would consume not less than 3 years' time.

Senator BYRD. Why was it then that in the Treasury Department you mention here specifically that the health would be taken out of the Treasury Department? Why did you give particular consideration to that?

Mr. BROWNLOW. We gave particular consideration to certain things that we did not think fitted into the 10 departments, and we suggested 2 new ones, and in the 2 new ones we did put in general activities, such as health.

Senator BYRD. Are you willing then, to give to the committee a detailed statement of the bureaus that would be grouped under the two departments?

Mr. BROWNLOW. No, sir; because there are probably existing bureaus, some part of which may very well go, for good administration, to the two new departments, and some parts remain in the old

ones.

Senator MCNARY. Doctor, I assume this study is to be made prior to the enactment of the legislation?

Mr. BROWNLOW. No, sir. We recommend that the legislation giving the power to the President be enacted and that then, in its orderly procedure, through the research unit of the Bureau of the

Budget, that the work be taken up. I do not believe that that job ever could be done within the life of one Congress.

Senator MCNARY. I would think that the orderly procedure would be to make a study, an intensified and deep study along this line, then file a report to Congress preceding the enactment of permanent legislation, otherwise we might foreclose ourselves from doing anything and give carte blanc to the President to do as he pleases. I am not interested in the study of this proposition if we are simply going to discuss it and then show it to the President.

Mr. GULICK. Our ideas have been expressed in that report and in this draft of the bill which follows generally the acts which heretofore have been passed by Congress.

Now, with respect to the two new departments; if, as was done in 1903 and 1913, that power was given to the President, he would have to examine into it through the machinery that we have suggested, examine into the question and determine what bureaus should go into those two departments. We say, "Education", there. Well, by no means would everything that is education in the entire Government of the United States be transferred to that Department of Social Welfare. Take the Naval Academy and the Military Academy, they are education, but at least I cannot conceive of a study that would throw them there. But, generally speaking, that would be the Department which would advise the President on matters of that kind, and certain of the functions could go there.

It is conceivable that many of these bureaus, after such a study, would not be transferred in whole, certain functions of them may, because they have grown up in an irrational way and the times have changed, be transferred.

Senator BYRNES. What difference is there between the powers you propose in your report and the powers given by the Congress to President Hoover?

Mr. GULICK. None.

Senator HARRISON. You said it would take about 3 years, in your opinion, if this authority were given to the President and a study is made. Can you give the committee an opinion as to how long it would take if this matter is left to a committee, or a joint committee of the two Houses to study all these intricate propositions and to get together then upon a bill that would make the ransfer on a given proposition?

Mr. GULICK. My experience is so much less than that of the Members of Congress that, with great diffidence, I express an opinion, but I think it would take a very long time.

Senator McNARY. What time would it take the President? He has less time than the Members of Congress. He is imposed upon by committees, planning boards, commissions, at all times. I do not take any stock in the proposition that the Congress does not have time to do these things and thus saddle additional burdens on the President.

Here is the thing that bothers me: I am tremendously interested in certain agencies remaining where they are. I want them static. When I read your report, in this message that Senator Byrd has given me, on page 60, with which I am more or less conversant, you intimate that there are going to be transfers of certain units, divi

sions, agencies, from one major department to another. I stated at one of the first meetings that, because of my intimate relationship with the Agricultural Department for years, my great interest in Forest Service, the splendid work it has done under that great Department to which it is inherently related, that I would oppose bitterly giving authority to anyone to make that transfer, unless the Congress had something to say and do about it. Now, according to your theory, you are not willing to say where they should go or if they should remain where they are.

Mr. GULICK. Our committee has made no study of the particular activities of these bureaus.

Senator MCNARY. But your information in your classification would indicate it goes away from Agriculture to Conservation and is placed alongside of the public domain to which it is not related at all, outside of the grazing features.

Mr. GULICK. I think the intimation is, in the phrase "except as otherwise assigned," that these conservation things can stay in Agriculture.

Senator MONARY. In other words, it is a general statement and you are just dodging the issue. I think there should be a frank assertion.

Mr. GULICK. No; it was deliberately inserted in order to avoid the idea that we were recommending that everything that had to do with the public domain, or with conservation, should go into one department.

Senator BARKLEY. Is it not a fact that many of these bureaus that were located, for one reason or another, or without any reason, into the departments like the Bureau of Public Health in the Treasury Department, that at the time the Bureau of Health was started it was thought it was a revenue matter, and other agencies were put in the Treasury because they were connected with the revenue, and all those sort of things which developed later in the Public Health Service have no connection now with the Treasury?

Mr. GULICK. Quite so.

Senator McNARY. I concede that. Of course, that is a rare case. That is very obvious and requires no argument. Take the engineers— I do not know whether they are going in Public Works or in your Bureau of Conservation. I know they ought to stay where they are, with the background they have and the history of splendid achievement in engineering.

I know something about the Bureau of Reclamation. I do not know whether it is going in Conservation or in Agriculture, or whether it is going to Public Works. I know where I think it ought to be, because I happened to have had intimate knowledge, Mr. Chairman, at one time of that activity. I cannot sit by uncomplaining and listen to a commission, as able as you are, claim it is unable to specify accurately, how you think this grouping should be. Well, I think my knowledge is superior to that of the President, or any member of the commission. I have been a student of that all my life. Is it up to me to pass my rights to you folks to further study the bill and trust to the passage of the bill 3 years hence?

Mr. GULICK. Not to us for 3 years.