Representative, GIFFORD. If you abolish a department, for instance-in our department of conservation in Massachusetts, if you remember what was taken in under that blanket, but by a different name-hereby abolish a certain department and create a new department under another name with exactly or practically exactly the same functions-but every man in the policy personnel lost his position, of course, a new department was created with a new name, and, of course, this can be done here, can it not?

Mr. MERRIAM. What do you mean?

Representative GIFFORD. You have the word "overhaul" in this

report?

Mr. MERRIAM. Yes.

Representative GIFFORD. What does that word "overhaul" mean? Mr. MERRIAM. I don't know just exactly what you would like to get light on, Congressmen.

Representative GIFFORD. I think I have made it plain that any man, any one of the personnel in these various departments, who foresees a change in a department either under a new title or under new work, and sees that his job is in jeopardy

Mr. MERRIAM. That can be done today, Congressman. There is nothing new about that. No man has any title to an office. The President can release him today-tonight-if he likes, or he can let 10,000 employees or 100,000 go if he likes. That is the law now.

Representative GIFFORD. I do not want to imply that there will be wholesale changes here, but if you hand to the Executive the power to overhaul or create or change the working functions

The CHAIRMAN. You would not require retention of personnel that is not necessary under the reorganization?

Representative GIFFORD. Well, in my State, Senator, there was not lacking a suspicion that that was the principal attempt at the reorganization from 90 departments to 19. I happened to be on the spot and saw the heads fall, and there was a suspicion at least that that was one of the greatest inducements. They disliked to get rid of old employees but they found this easy way of dropping them off.

The CHAIRMAN. If anything is to be accomplished by reorganization in the way of economy and efficiency it would be necessary to eliminate those employees that are no longer needed under the new regime. If you do not do that you would not have accomplished very much.

Representative GIFFORD. May I ask a question? If the functions of a certain organization were abolished and another created, does that not appeal to you at once that there would be an opportunity there to have a complete new personnel?

The CHAIRMAN. I would not say a complete new personnel, but I would say that to get an efficient personnel it would be necessary to dispense with some, in all probability, and you would only dispense with those who are no longer necessary.

It is approaching the hour of 12 o'clock when we will have to suspend. Can we meet tomorrow and continue this hearing?

Representative COCHRAN. Does it not stand to reason, Doctor, that if you take five independent agencies, as an example, and put them in the Department of Commerce, those five independent agencies today have five personnel men, they have five disbursing officers, they have five legal divisions, and many others I could name; when they go into the Department of Commerce the disbursing officer of

the Department of Commerce takes over all that work, and the issuance of a few thousand checks a month does not mean you have to keep the entire five, if they are brought under that one department; so with the other duplications; certainly you are going to eliminate them, certainly you are going to save money, and you can never do otherwise if you improve the efficiency. That is the purpose of the reorganization, elimination, duplication, and waste.

The CHAIRMAN. Unless there is some objection we will meet tomorrow at 10 o'clock.

Representative MEAD. Senator, if I may, I would like to have Dr. Merriam give this some thought so he might help me solve the problem when we meet tomorrow.

You made a very excellent statement about the ineffectiveness of government resulting in a reaction against the parliamentary system as witnessed in Europe. We saw in the last decade over 30 major changes in world governments. We saw the people in an attempt to secure effective government eliminate the monarch, bring the two legislative bodies together into one, eliminate the power of one to veto the acts of the other, and finally we saw them set up a dictator. Now, here in this country, we have the House checking the Senate and the Senate checking the House, and the Executive checking both, and the Supreme Court checking all of them, with the written Constitution as a general check on the three arms of our Government. In 1930, 1932, 1934, and 1936 the people spoke, and have not had real responsive government because of the presence of all these checks. You made the point that you were going to make the Government more efficient by increasing the effectiveness of the administrative branch of the Government, Mr. Brownlow said that he was going to recommend career service for almost everybody in the executive branch except a few at the top.

Now you counter by saying you would decentralize government by giving some of the governmental agencies to the people back home. I am wondering if, when you have career service or civil service in all these important policy-making positions, and if you decentralize certain agencies of government, if you are not making our Government less democratic rather than more democratic.

An illustration of the point was made by Senator O'Mahoney, who explained the attitude of a powerful bureaucrat in some remote city, representing an agency of the central government, who would not be responsive to the people at all. He hurts democratic government in many instances, while the presence of the postmaster, for instance, selected as an outstanding man in the community, make democracy popular.

I think you ought to give some thought to that subject, and in your talk tomorrow tell us something about this so-called career service for these major representatives of Government. I am still believing in and clinging to the idea that if the President had an opportunity to change some of them when he came into office we would have a better democratic system.

Senator O'MAHONEY. I suggest that at the conclusion of Mr. Gifford's questions notation be made that sections 502 and 503 of the tentative bill seem to answer his question.

The CHAIRMAN. We will adjourn until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

REORGANIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENTS

TUESDAY, MARCH 9, 1937

JOINT COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION,
Washington, D. C.

The joint committee met, Senator Robinson presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. Will the committee please come to order. Gentlemen, I have to be absent for a time. I am going to ask Mr. Byrnes to take the chair. I suggest that Mr. Gulick be recalled in connection with reorganization. Until I return, Mr. Byrnes, will you preside?

Representative TABER. Now, I am going to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Gulick, if he has not already done so, give us the same information about himself that Mr. Merriam gave yesterday.

Senator BYRNES. My recollection is that he did.

Mr. GULICK. I did in answer to a question by you.

Senator HARRISON. I think he did, when he started his testimony. Senator BYRNES. If it is in there you do not want to continue it, do you?

Representative TABER. NO.

Senator BYRNES. I think Mr. Merriam also made a statement yesterday as to your experience in connection with his own experience. The Chairman stated that you had been asked to return to make a statement on reorganization. Do you have a statement that you desire to make, Mr. Gulick?

STATEMENT OF LUTHER GULICK

Mr. GULICK. Senator Robinson suggested that it might be useful to pursue further the problem underlying reorganization of the executive branch. I have not prepared any particular statement in that field. I think, perhaps, however, it might be useful to the committee to consider the matter in the light of the past efforts at reorganization here in Washington under the programs that we have had. It really goes back to the problems that arose in 1903 when the Department of Commerce and Labor was set up as a recognition that at that time in American history we had proceeded far enough with work in those fields to create a separate department to take care of it. Then in 1913 it was felt that the work in Labor necessitated splitting that off and setting up a separate department there, so that we had two departments where there had been one before.

It is interesting to note that when the Congress passed the legislation in 1903 to set up the Department of Commerce and Labor it was decided that no one at that time had enough information to know just what could be put in the new department which was set up, and the President at that time was authorized, in the act creating the department, to make certain transfers of technical and scientific bureaus from other departments to the Department of Commerce and Labor if after investigation, he found that that was necessary.

152419-37-11

As late as 1925 two bureaus were moved under that provision. One of those was the Patent Office, which was carried to the Department of Commerce at that time by Executive order.

Senator HARRISON. Have you got a copy of that law?

Mr. GULICK. Yes.

Senator HARRISON. It seems to me it would be well to put it into the record.

Mr. GULICK. I can furnish you with a brief statement in which we have endeavored to summarize the major acts authorizing the transfer of bureaus. I think, perhaps, inasmuch as it is a document of some 20 pages, you would prefer to have copies of it made and circulated to the committee. It might be more useful in that form, but I will do as you suggest.

Representative COCHRAN. Can you furnish us with copies?

Mr. GULICK. I cannot furnish you with copies this morning, but I would be able to do so after I have had time to duplicate them. Senator HARRISON. Was any report to come back to the Congress before the final transfer was made?

Mr. GULICK. Not in that case, there was no provision whatsoever to that effect.

Senator HARRISON. I think we ought to have that in the record. Senator BYRNES. Very well.

(The matter referred to is as follows:)

UNITED STATES LAWS AUTHORIZING REDISTRIBUTION OF FUNCTIONS AMONG EXECUTIVE AGENCIES AND TRANSFERS OF POWERS OR DUTIES FROM ONE DEPARTMENT OR BUREAU TO ANOTHER BY THE PRESIDENT OR THE HEAD OF A DEPARTMENT

Act of February 14, 1903 (32 Stat. 830, sec. 12); President authorized to "transfer at any time the whole or any part of any office, bureau, division, or other branch of the public service engaged in statistical or scientific work, from the Department of State, the Department of the Treasury, the Department of War, the Department of Justice, the Post Office Deparment, the Department of the Navy, or the Department of the Interior, to the Department of Commerce and Labor; and in every such case the duties and authority performed by and conferred by law upon such office, bureau, division, or other branch of the public service, or the part thereof so transferred, shall be thereby transferred with such office, bureau, division, or other branch of the public service, or the part thereof which is so transferred. And all power and authority conferred by law, both supervisory and appellate, upon the department from which such transfer is made, or the secretary thereof, in relation to the said office, bureau, division, or other branch of the public service, or the part thereof so transferred, shall immediately, when such transfer is so ordered by the President, be fully conferred upon and vested in the Department of Commerce and Labor, or the secretary thereof, as the case may be, as the whole or part of such office, bureau, division, or other branch of the public service so transferred."

Act of April 28, 1908 (35 Stat. 69, sec 3): President authorized "for any special occasion" to transfer "to the head of another department" the authority conferred upon the Secretary of Commerce and Labor to issue regulations for the safety of life during regattas or marine parades.

Act of June 24, 1910 (36 Stat. 613): "The duties assigned by law to the Bureau of Equipment shall be distributed among the other bureaus and offices of the Navy Department in such manner as the Secretary of the Navy shall consider expedient and proper during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1911, and the Secretary of the Navy, with the approval of the President, is hereby authorized and directed to assign and transfer to said other bureaus and offices, respectively. all available funds heretofore and hereby appropriated for the Bureau of Equipment and such civil employees of the Bureau as are authorized by law, and when such distribution of duties, funds, and em

ployees shall have been completed, the Bureau of Equipment shall be discontinued as hereinbefore provided." The same provision was repeated for the fiscal years 1912, 1913, and 1914, in the acts of March 4, 1911 (36 Stat. 1273); August 22, 1912 (37 Stat. 339); and March 4, 1913 (37 Stat. 899).

Act of March 3, 1917 (39 Stat. 1122, sec. 8): "The Bureau of Efficiency shall investigate duplication of service in the various executive departments and establishments of the Government, including bureaus and divisions, and make a report to the President thereon, and the President is hereby authorized, after such reports shall have been made to him, whenever he finds such duplication to exist to abolish the same."

LAWS APPLICABLE IN EMERGENCIES ONLY

Act of July 1, 1902 (32 Stat. 713, sec. 4): President authorized to "utilize the Public Health and Marine Hospital Service in times of threatened or actual war to such extent and in such manner as shall in his judgment promote the public interest without, however, in anywise impairing the efficiency of the services for the purposes for which the same was created and is maintained." Act of January 28, 1915 (38 Stat. 800): "The Coast Guard shall operate as a part of the Navy, subject to the orders of the Secretary of the Navy, in time of war, or when the President shall so direct."

Act of August 29, 1916 (39 Stat. 602): "The President is. hereby authorized, whenever in his judgment a sufficient national emergency exists, to transfer to the service and jurisdiction of the Navy Department, or of the War Department, such vessels, equipment, stations, and personnel of the Light House Service as he may deem to the best interests of the country, and after such transfer all expenses connected therewith shall be defrayed out of the appropriations for the department to which transfer is made."

Act of May 22, 1917 (40 Stat. 87, sec. 16): "The President is hereby authorized, whenever in his judgment a sufficient national emergency exists, to transfer to the service and jurisdiction of the War Department, or of the Navy Department, such vessels, equipment, stations, and personnel of the Coast and Geodetic Survey as he may deem to the best interest of the country, and after such transfer all expenses connected therewith shall be defrayed out of the appropriations for the department to which transfer is made.”

UNITED STATES LAWS ATHORIZING DETAILS OF OFFICERS AND EMPLOYEES FROM ONE DEPARTMENT OR BUREAU TO ANOTHER AT THE SEAT OF GOVERNMENT

I. CIVIL SERVICE

Revised Statutes, 166, as amended by act of May 28, 1896 (29 Stat. 179): "Each head of a department may, from time to time, alter the distribution of the clerks and other employees allowed by law, except such clerks or employees as may be required by law to be exclusively engaged upon some specific work, as he may find it necessary and proper to do, but all details hereunder shall be made by written order of the head of the department, and in no case be for a period of time exceeding 120 days: Provided, That details so made may, on expiration, be renewed from time to time by written order of the head of the department, in each particular case, for periods of not exceeding 120 days." Act of November 21, 1877 (20 Stat. 3): Heads of departments authorized to detail clerks for temporary service in Surgeon General's office, to furnish information called for by the Commissioner of Pensions.

Act of June 2, 1879 (21 Stat. 7, sec. 7): President authorized to detail officers from the various departments for temporary duty under the National Board of Health to enforce quarantine regulations. (This act expired by limitation in 1883.)

Act of February 15, 1893 (27 Stat. 450, sec. 2): President authorized to detail medical officers to consulates to perform duties under quarantine laws.

Act of June 18, 1910 (36 Stat. 556, sec. 16): "The several departments and bureaus of the Government shall detail from time to time such officials and employees" to the Commission to investigate railroad stocks and bonds "as may be directed by the President."

Act of September 26, 1914 (38 Stat. 722, sec. 8): "The several departments and bureaus of the Government * * * shall detail from time to time such officials and employees" to the Federal Trade Commission as the President may direct.