Mr. ELSTON. Are you attorney for Loveman's? Mr. WILSON. No, sir; I am not. The only thing I know about them is what I have read in the paper and after I came in. Mr. ELSTON. What assurance is there that they will spend more time in Oak Ridge? Mr. WILSON. I don't have any assurance, sir. I don't have any assurance. The only thing that I have is that I know what the Taylor's operation has been in the past, and I know what we can expect in the future. I know that practically every businessman in Oak Ridge one time or another has talked with me about the situation with reference to that. Mr. KILDAY. You are county attorney of Anderson County. Is that the county in which Oak Ridge is located? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. Mr. KILDAY. This is election year. Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. Mr. KILDAY. We run, too. Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. Mr. KILDAY. I feel sure you feel you represent the majority sentiment in Oak Ridge. Mr. WILSON. No question about it. I am running for Congress. down there. Mr. KILDAY. Against the city member? Mr. WILSON. The city of Knoxville is involved in it, too, gentlemen. We realize that we may be taking trade away from Knoxville. What we are trying to do is to build a community that is self-supporting, 95 percent, at least that much. There is no question of the sentiment in Oak Ridge that we should and we will have to have another department store in there if we are ever going to build a commercial community that can be self-sustaining. I am a director of the chamber of commerce there. Mr. Carl Harmon is the president of the chamber of commerce. Mr. ELSTON. If you build up business in Oak Ridge for a department store, you necessarily take it away from Knoxville, do you not? Mr. WILSON. That is correct. We see no reason in the world why Oak Ridge should be a suburb of Knoxville, and we do not think it is. We think Oak Ridge is one of the most important cities in Tennessee, and we know that it is the fifth largest city in Tennessee, and see no reason in the world why over 50 percent of our trade should go to Knoxville. Mr. ELSTON. It is unique because the Government runs Oak Ridge. Mr. WILSON. We are very anxious to get them out of there. We know this, that as long as it is necessary for the Government to subsidize the operation of Oak Ridge that we are not going to have free enterprise down there completely. We are as anxious to get that up to where the city supports itself as anybody. Mr. ELSTON. You mentioned some figures a moment ago. If you got a proper department store in there, you would increase the volume of business from 17 to 38 million dollars? Mr. WILSON. It is not at all beyond the possibility to increase the volume of business from Oak Ridge. I don't know that the department store itself will do all of that. I don't think it will. But I do think that the department store can certainly do as much busi-. ness there and draw as much traffic as a grocery store can. Mr. ELSTON. I am interested in your method of calculation. How are you going to increase business from $17,000,000 to $38,000,000, if the department store comes in there, and according to their estimates only does a business of perhaps between a million and 2 million dollars a year? Mr. WILSON. Gentlemen, if Miller's Department Store in Knoxville, 24 miles away, can do 26 percent of the business, do almost twice the amount of business that Taylor's Department Store does Mr. ELSTON. You have no figures on how much Miller's business comes from Oak Ridge? Mr. WILSON. That is exactly what I am quoting. Mr. ELSTON. How much money was spent in Miller's by the people of Oak Ridge? Mr. WILSON. They spent almost twice as much, the people of Oak Ridge, in Miller's in Knoxville, as they spent in Taylor's. Mr. ELSTON. Have you any assurance that all of that money will come to Oak Ridge? Mr. WILSON. No, but we want to try to get it. Mr. ELSTON. The people of Oak Ridge necessarily do a lot of their shopping in Knoxville because they have more of a choice of stores there. Mr. WILSON. One reason, one big reason they gave in this survey was because they did not have a decent department store they could shop in. Mr. ELSTON. That is the opinion of a few people. But it is obvious that if you put a department store in Oak Ridge, I do not care what type it is, there are a certain number of people that will go to Knoxville to do their shopping. That is natural and human. Mr. WILSON. That is correct. Mr. ELSTON. You indicate by your figures that you will increase business from $17,000,000 to $38,000,000, by having a department store there. Mr. WILSON. No, no, I am sorry if I gave that impression. I did not intend to do that. That is our goal. We think we can accomplish it, and we think this is one important step toward accomplishing that, a very important step toward accomplishing it, because the department store is the key, the department store is that which attracts and draws the other trade in, and if we can get a department store there which will serve the needs of the community, then all of the other businesses in town will benefit, all of them around Jackson Square. I do know that 90 percent of all of the Jackson Square people have talked with me, and it is their consensus of opinion that Taylor's is hurting their business by running trade to Knoxville. Mr. ELSTON. Does not a lot of business come in from the outside into Oak Ridge? Mr. WILSON. No. Mr. ELSTON. Why would the people of Oak Ridge be more apt to buy from a grocery store because you have another department store there? They have the grocery stores now. They have the others. Mr. WILSON. That is correct, sir. Mr. ELSTON. Just explain why the addition of a department store will make them buy more groceries. Mr. WILSON. When a woman has to go to Knoxville to buy the dress, she will buy the other things over there. She will do all of her shopping over there. And these figures show that she does. They get the furniture and men's clothing over there in Knoxville. When they go over, when it is necessary to go to Knoxville to do the department-store buying, then they do the rest of their buying in Knoxville and this is the thing that it seems to me that we need. Mr. HOLIFIELD. Thank you, Mr. Wilson, for your testimony. Mr. WILSON. Thank you. Mr. HOLIFIELD. We have 20 minutes until 12, and at this time the committee will recognize Mr. Roth, to make a statement on behalf of the Taylor people, that is, to make any rebuttal that you wish to make. Mr. ROTH. I would like Mr. Stanley Levitt to make a short partial rebuttal to Mr. Wilson, if he might. Mr. HOLIFIELD. We will not have much time. Mr. ROTH. You better proceed. We will put this in the evidence. Mr. ELSTON. Before we close, I think we should have a statement from Mr. White whether he did or did not make the statement that was attributed to him. Mr. HOLIFIELD. Is Mr. White in the room? Will you come forward at this time? Excuse me, Mr. Roth, and we will take care of this. Mr. White, will you swear that the evidential testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. TESTIMONY OF HAROLD B. WHITE Mr. ELSTON. I ask you whether or not you said to Mr. Levitt, "We are going to teach these guys a lesson," or words to that effect? Mr. WHITE. I did not make that statement or words to that effect, sir. Mr. ELSTON. That is all. Mr. HOLIFIELD. I want to ask a question. Do you support and subscribe to the statement which has been made by your subordinate, Mr. Winfrey, the statements which he has made before this committee? Mr. WHITE. Yes, I do, sir. Mr. HOLIFIELD. Do you verify that to the best of your knowledge that they are factual? Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir; I do. Mr. HOLIFIELD. Are there any further questions? That is all, sir. Did you have a statement you wished to make? Mr. WHITE. I have a sworn statement specifically denying these points that he brought out. Mr. HOLIFIELD. We will accept that, and it will be inserted in the record. Please give it to the clerk. (The statement referred to is as follows:) Mr. Stanley Levitt, former book and cosmetic subconcessionaire in Taylor's Department Store, Oak Ridge, has stated that on various occasions I have made statements expressing: 1. A personal dislike for Mr. E. L. Hall, representative of Marx Realty & Improvement Co., New York, agents for Darling Stores Corp., New York. 2. That I stated that "I wanted to teach them a lesson.' 3. That I stated that they did not have much of a chance. 4. That I advised Mr. Levitt to sell to the bare walls. I unqualifiedly deny having made any of the above statements. It is true that on several occasions, where I was shopping in Taylor's Store, Mr. Levitt came to me and asked the status of the department-store award. In each instance I stated that no final decision had been made. It is also true that Mr. Levitt asked me on several occasions what I thought he should do under existing conditions. In each instance I told him that he would have to use his own judgment. Regarding the statement of Mr. Ira Cravens, also a former subconcessionaire in Taylor's Department Store. It is true that Mr. Cravens came to my office in early December and asked about the status of the department-store award. As no decision had been made, I told him so. He expressed concern regarding his business future in event the award was made to a company other than Taylor's and seemed very worried. I told him that if he wished he could inspect some of our other locations and at the proper time make a proposal, in competition with others, for whichever location he desired. HAROLD B. WHITE, Manager, Commercial Realty Division, I hereby swear the above is a correct statement. HAROLD B. WHITE. WASHINGTON, D. C., March 14, 1950. Signed and sworn to by Harold B. White. TRUMAN WARD, Notary Public. (Additional information furnished by Frank W. Wilson is marked "Exhibit 8" and will be found in the appendix, p. 161.) Mr. LEVITT. May I say something? Mr. HOLIFIELD. Mr. Levitt, for what purpose? Mr. LEVITT. In the first place, Mr. White did make those statements to me. He absolutely and unequivocally made the statements. I want to put that in the record. I have a telegram here. Mr. Wilson, as he says, is running for Congress, made a very fine political speech here in defense of the poor people of Oak Ridge who by some mysterious way are going to raise the volume of business from 17 to 38 million dollars. Discussing the financial responsibility of the Darling Stores Corp., which is rated AAA-1 in Dun and Bradstreet's, they are ridiculous statements, absolutely ridiculous. Mr. HOLIFIELD. The committee will be a judge as to that, Mr. Levitt. Please have your testimony conform. Mr. LEVITT. Mr. Wilson said he had a letter from a certain number of concessionaires to the Darling Stores. This letter. was sent in 1946, that is over three years ago, Relations smoothed themselves out considerably. It was a new operation, and naturally there were some things that had to be ironed out. You can understand that. Just to show you that certain of these concessionaires that were probably signatories to that letter felt that they ought to stay in Taylor's and felt that their relations were good with Taylor's they sent this telegram to David Lillienthal, Senator McKellar, Senator Hickenlooper, the chairman of the House Business Committee, Senators McMahon and Kefauver. We, the undersigned, are subconcessionaires in Taylor's Department Store in Oak Ridge, Tenn. Mr. Stanley Levitt is our representative before you now, If we are forced out of business we not only lose our business and means of livelihood but lose our homes as well. We only ask just and equitable treatment. Since we have been here 31⁄2 years we feel that it is to our interest as well as the public's that renegotiations be opened with Taylor's. That is signed by the men's department, Ira E. Cravens; greeting cards and candy, Lucille Hamrick; Town and Country, Sehlagh Nunn; yarn shop, Lysbeth Blackburn; shoe repair, M. Rains; alterations department, Ellen Crawford; books and cosmetics, Stanley and Hilda Levitt; photo shop, J. D. Foster; and jewelry department, M. Bucov. Mr. HOLIFIELD. Will you submit that for the record also? Mr. LEVITT. Yes, sir, that represents the majority of the concessionaires in Taylor's at the time we lost out. Mr. HOLIFIELD. What is the date? Mr. LEVITT. Sent January 19, 1950. That is all I have to say. (The telegram referred to is as follows:) We, the undersigned, are subconcessionaires in Taylor's Department Store in Oak Ridge, Tenn. Mr. Stanley Levitt is our representative before you now. If we are forced out of business we not only lose our business and means of livelihood but lose our homes as well. We only ask just and equitable treatment. Since we have been here 31⁄2 years we feel it is to our interest as well as the public's that renegotiations be opened with Taylor's. Men's Department, Ira E. Cravens; Greeting Cards and Candy, Lucille Mr. HOLIFIELD. All right, Mr. Roth. Mr. ROTH. I will try to be as brief as possible. Mr. Wilson just_testified rather glibly about several things, and because it is fresh, I want to refer to it. His statement on the figures is unequivocally untrue. We don't know where he got it. We paid for the fixtures and no one has paid us for them. There is no question about that. We don't know where he got that misinformation or how he dare make it. Here is the president of the Darling Stores and he states that as a fact. Mr. Stanley Levitt is one of the concessionaires. They were never asked to pay for fixtures. They paid the rent which was to leave them a small profit or large profit depending upon their efficiency, and the total rent we were asked to pay was 6 percent, far in excess of any figures that have been mentioned for the new lease for the longer period. And in each case our subconcessionaires received a reasonable rental. His categorical statement as a lawyer that we asked excessive rental must be disregarded. Mr. ELSTON. It is obviously hearsay. This committee will weigh the testimony and decide how much credence shall be given to it. Mr. ROTH. We will be glad to show the leases and examine the rentals. Mr. HOLIFIELD. What is the arrangement of your sublease percentages. Mr. GLUCK. Ten percent. It may have been a little above that, at the most possibly 11, but for that we supplied all of their services, all of the porters and the maids, and window trimmers and cashiers, and |