Mr. WILKINS. We have already worked very closely with those organizations, Senator. We worked very closely last summer in the summer task force effort. I don't believe that means we will need to work Senator JAVITS. But you will work closely with them. Do you want to evaluate it as to its quality, how closely with them as distinguished from how closely with the Department of Justice? Mr. WILKINS. I would not know quite how to evaluate it, Senator. Senator JAVITS. Neither do I, sir. That is why I am so worried about your move. Mr. WILKINS. I can tell you that we do have liaison people whose function it is to work specifically with the Office of Economic Opportunity, the Department of Labor, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. And we do, every day, every week, work closely with them. But essentially we are concerned with the problems of closing up the gap of disparity between the lives of white people and the lives of minority group people in this country. Now, those disparities, those problems of disparity, in their most heated forms come to the Department of Justice. They come because minority group people are very, very dissatisfied, very unhappy, and they are protesting. The President has clearly indicated that the Attorney General is the man to whom he looks in this area. And when they are pressing in that way, they don't go to the Secretary of Labor, they don't go to the Secretary of Commerce-they go to the Attorney General, or they come to us. But very, very often they go to the Attorney General. Just last week somebody from a northern community, a very difficult problem of de facto segregation, came from a longway away on a shoestring budget just to see the Attorney General. This happens all the time. They go to him. Because the problem has gravitated to his desk-either because the people come to him, or because the President calls him and holds him responsible it seems to me fitting, appropriate, and necessary for us to be there; to be involved in that process and to have an impact on the judgments that are made in these matters and to be there to do the things which fall within our mandate and which needs to be done on the problems that come to the Department of Justice. Senator JAVITS. You haven't had any trouble cooperating with the Attorney General up to now, since you have been in that job, have you? Mr. WILKINS. I haven't had trouble up to now, and I have worked well with the Attorney General and the Deputy Attorney General last summer. Senator JAVITS. Have you consulted your predecessor, Governor Collins, to find out whether he had any trouble cooperating with the Attorney General, or the Attorney General had any trouble getting him when he wanted him? Mr. WILKINS. No, they didn't. I am sure they didn't have any trouble. Senator JAVITS. Do you think that this transfer is necessary to prevent and I am quoting now from the memorandum of justificationdo you think this transfer is necessary to prevent inefficiency? Mr. WILKINS. I think, Senator, that there will be less inefficiency if the transfer occurs. Senator JAVITS. Is there any now? Mr. WILKINS. I think there is some. I think that the Civil Rights Division and the Community Relations Service are necessarily often concerned in similar problems about the same problem in a community. And there have been times when we didn't know what they were doing, when they didn't know what we were doing. Senator JAVITS. Doesn't that happen in every Government agency, even with two divisions in it? Mr. WILKINS. I am sure it does. Senator JAVITS. Of course it does. Mr. WILKINS. But I think it is much less likely to happen and that it will happen much less frequently if we are both in the same department. Senator JAVITS. At least that is your judgment? Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir. Senator JAVITS. Thank you very much. (At this point Senator Ribicoff had to leave the hearing, and asked Senator Harris to assume the duties of the Chair.) Senator HARRIS. Mr. Wilkins, I want to ask you the other side of the question you were asked earlier. At page 5 of your statement you say: The Civil Rights Division, the Department of Justice, and the Community Relations Service have worked together over the last year and a half and have developed a sound cooperative relationship. Has the fact that you have been working closely together with Justice in any way impaired your effectiveness, or the effectiveness of the Community Relations Service to date? Mr. WILKINS. No, sir, Senator Harris, it has not. Senator HARRIS. Have you experienced any problems about confidential matters that have come to the Community Relations Service and the cooperative function that you have carried on with Justice to date? Mr. WILKINS. No, sir. Senator HARRIS. Do you expect those problems would become worse as a result of moving over to Justice? Mr. WILKINS. No, sir, I do not. Senator HARRIS. Let me ask you-I believe you testified that you went out to Los Angeles, with this team the President sent out, as staff director. Mr. WILKINS. I wasn't staff director. This was-I was staff director of an overall summer project. But when the Los Angeles situation arose, the President asked the Deputy Attorney General to go out there and head a team, and I was just one of the members of the staff, of that team. Senator HARRIS. One of the staff members, and Governor Collins was a part of the team, and the team was headed by the Deputy Attorney General? Mr. WILKINS. That is right. Senator HARRIS. Did the team experience any difficulty in the conciliation, mediation function, or gathering information about that situation, by reason of the fact that it was headed by a man from the Attorney General's Office? Mr. WILKINS. No, sir. I think that, as a matter of fact, our ability to get information, to talk to people, people's willingness to talk to us, was enhanced, not because he was an official of the Department of Justice, but just because he was a very high Government official. Senator HARRIS. Was there any reluctance witnessed that you know of on the part of people who appeared with or before the team to reveal matters in confidence because the team was headed by a man from the Attorney General's Office? Mr. WILKINS. No, sir. Senator HARRIS. You expect, therefore, that the same would be true if you were Director within the Attorney General's Office rather than a Director in the Commerce Department? Mr. WILKINS. I think the same would be true. Senator HARRIS. Detail for us, Mr. Wilkins, if you will, your own career highlights. I understand you were in social work and then practiced law in New York. Mr. WILKINS. Yes, sir. I was a caseworker with the Cuyahoga County Welfare Department in Cleveland, Ohio, in 1957. I practiced law in New York from 1958 through the spring of 1962. From May of 1962 until October 1964 I served as Special Assistant to the Administrator of the Agency for International Development. And in October 1964 I became an Assistant Director of the Community Relations Service. Senator HARRIS. I want to commend you for an excellent letter of January 27, 1966, accompanying the report of the Community Relations Service to the Congress. The last paragraph says: The aim of the professionals in the Community Relations Service is in conjunction with all of the other tools which the Congress has given to the President and together with the people of this country, to work itself out of a job. The sooner this task is done, the sooner America can turn all of her talents, all of her energies, and not just the talents and energies of some of her people, but the talents and energies of all her people to the very great challenges which face this country and its people in the years ahead. Now, is it your personal, as well as official, position before this committee that that job can better be done if Reorganization Plan No. 1 is put into effect? Mr. WILKINS. First of all, thank you for the compliment, Senator Harris. It is my personal as well as professional opinion that that can be done best if Reorganization Plan No. 1 goes into effect. Senator HARRIS. Are there further questions, Senator? Senator JAVITS. Well, Mr. Wilkins, as I said before, I hope you won't construe my rather close questioning of you because I am in the opposition in this matter as any reflection on you personally. I voted to approve you in this position. I advised the Commerce Committee of my desire to have you have this post. I differ with you-as you know, I talked about this to you personally-I differ with you about the transfer. This is not in derogation of my respect for you, personally. Mr. WILKINS. Thank you, Senator. And my opposing view on this subject does not diminish my long-held respect for you. Senator JAVITS. Thank you very much. Senator HARRIS. Thank you, Mr. Wilkins. Mr. WILKINS. Thank you very much. Senator HARRIS. The committee will now be pleased to hear from the Honorable Herman Goldner, the mayor of St. Petersburg, Fla., Mr. Goldner is representing the U.S. conference of mayors. (A biographical sketch of Mayor Goldner follows:) BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH OF HERMAN W. GOLDNER Birth: November 12, 1916. Distinction: Magna cum laude, graduate, B.S., Miami University, 1939. Harvard Business School, distinction degree, M.B.A., 1948. President, Citrus Broadcasting Co., Invernus, Fla. Vice president, Colonial Dodge, Inc., St. Petersburg, Fla. Vice president, Medical Insurance, Inc., St. Petersburg, Fla. Mayor, city of St. Petersburg, Fla., 1962, present, third term. Member, President's Advisory Committee on Intergovernmental Relations. Member, Executive Committee, Community Relations Advisory Committee, Federal Community Relations Service. Member, executive committee, U.S. conference of mayors. Chairman, community relations committee, U.S. conference of mayors. Senator JAVITS. Mr. Chairman, I have to go to something else that takes me out at 11:30. I did want to leave a question for the record, for Mayor Goldner to answer in due course, and that is, what does he personally think about this matter from his own experience in testifying as a witness himself, as distinguished from his statement on behalf of the conference of mayors? Senator HARRIS. We will certainly get that asked for the record. Thank you, Senator. Mr. Mayor, you may proceed. Mr. GOLDNER. I have a prepared statement I would like to submit for inclusion in the record. Mr. HARRIS. Without objection, the entire statement will be made a part of the record at the conclusion of your remarks. STATEMENT OF HERMAN W. GOLDNER, MAYOR OF ST. PETERSBURG, FLA., CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON COMMUNITY RELATIONS, U.S. CONFERENCE OF MAYORS Mr. GOLDNER. Having reviewed the testimony of the witnesses before this committee yesterday, and having listened with attention to the testimony of the witness here today, I think that I might be of greater use to this committee if I depart from that statement and address myself to what I consider to be the crystallization of the issues, as I have read that testimony. Senator HARRIS. Good. The committee will certainly appreciate that. Mr. GOLDNER. First of all, let me say my approach to this problem in my own thinking has been primarily that of a management point of view. And in evaluating it from a structural management aspect and from a long-haul position, I think the following comment may be of use. First of all, any structure, regardless of its theoretical soundness, can be made to work with good people. And in this particular instance, in addition to knowing the reputation of both Mr. Wilkins and the Attorney General-I have had the privilege of meeting and know ing them personally-and I am sure that regardless of structure, these two gentlemen can make it work. However, when you structure an organization, you try to arrive at a structure which goes beyond the individuals, and has some theoretical and practical soundness with regard to management channels and lines of authority. I cannot help but feel that as I would not put my certified public accountant in my cashier's post in the operation of my business, neither would I put the Community Relations Service in the Justice Depart ment. In the operation of our problems within our own community, where we have an intergroup relations committee, we separate and keep them separate and apart from our police department and from our municipal court, nor do we have our police department as a part of our municipal judges office. The problem as I look at it seems to be one of looking at the function of the Community Relations Service. And I think really we have to go beyond the technical language of title 10 of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and to agree, I think, that it is irrelevant at this time what the intent of the Congress was when they passed that act. I think our problem today and the problem of this committee is basically where and how this function can best be served-Justice, Commerce, or wherever. And I think the committee as well as the President, should be congratulated on this in-depth review of this problem. Obviously, in any urbanized community maintaining the theory and practice of democratic process requires the solution of intergroup problems. But I don't believe they can be looked at in a traditional legalistic sense at all, and I don't think they are as much legal problems, although I am a lawyer, as they are sociological problems. And I don't think that conciliation or mediation can be looked at in the sense of solving a lawsuit, or, for that matter, as a preliminary to criminal prosecution. Basically, as I look at the ultimate and growing function of the Community Relations Service, as it was and will be I am sure ably administered by the current administrator, as well as Governor Collins, its basic function to me is to thrust itself forward in the planning and coordination of programs within many departments that are associated in the areas of these problems with a view toward acquiring true equality of opportunity and equality of living for all of our people in the United States. And only when we can acquire that goal can we really say we have true democratic process in our country. As I look at it, the problem then becomes one, not only of the enforcement of the laws of the United States, the laws of the various States and the various communities involved, but basically addressing oneself toward the feeling of one person toward another and of groups toward each other. The problem becomes one of merging and coordinating the programs of the current Housing and Urban Development Department, the Health, Education, and Welfare Department, the Labor Department, and many others, as well as the problem which is to my way of thinking the last problem down the line, the problem of actual legal enforcement. |