Mr. ADDABBO. It is not a VA budget item; you are going to give the money to the VA?

Dr. JAFFE. The money would be transferred from the Special Fund to supplement the VA budget.

Mr. ADDABBO. If I look at the VA budget and it says drug abuse, they are going to have zero because they are going to be reimbursed by you; is that correct?

Dr. JAFFE. No, they will indicate the budget that they have for ongoing

Mr. ADDABBO. When they come before the Congress, they come before the Congress and ask for money to take care of their programs. I am asking you this: When they present their budget to the Congress, Appropriations Committee, under "Drug abuse programs," they are going to have zero because they are going to get the money from you? Dr. JAFFE. No, sir. The $40 million would be inadequate to fund every single agency working in this field.

Mr. ADDABBO. We gave them money for those programs. Don't tell us you are funding those programs.

Dr. JAFFE. I am not.

Mr. ADDABBO. What are you going to use this $20 million and $40 million for? If it is not used, you are going to return it? Beautiful; but we don't want to lay out $60 million and someone has a pot to use in case they want to play around, you can hire 1,000 people and give contracts to every favorite son or college. We also have LEAA contracting and doing this with $100 million. We don't want this money laying around at this stage of the game to be giving out contracts. What are you going to use $60 million for?

Dr. JAFFE. I can show you where the 30,000 people are waiting for treatment. In fact, these contracts would be written by those agencies best able to write them. In fact, in a particular area this is not a veterans' problem but a general problem. We would in all likelihood ask HEW to make moneys available quickly to get this thing done. Therefore, we would transfer a certain portion of our money over to HEW. Next year this would not appear in the special fund but in their budget. Mr. ADDABBO. In the interest of time, Dr. Jaffe, you have given us a wonderful statement, and I know that you are trying to do a job, as we all are, but people such as my friend from New York have said they are tired of hearing about studies. What I want you to do, and if you expect to get this money, I don't know about the other members, I would ask you to submit for the record a proposed budgeting of this $20 million and $40 million. If you can say the VA needs this money budget, so much for them, et cetera.

Give us some idea of that. If I decide and this committee decides to give you that $60 million and you return to us next year and we find that this money has not been used or these programs are not moving, then you are going to have to answer us on specifics. Right now you don't have to answer on anything. You have $60 million in the general pot. I want to see where it is going and if it is doing any good.

Dr. JAFFE. I understand your feelings about it, and we will try to provide it to you. I think that the issue here is whether we want to be prepared to move ahead as rapidly as we can as the situation evolves, or whether we can tolerate more months of delay.

Mr. ADDABBO. We cannot tolerate 1 hour of delay in this area, nor can we tolerate use of words and figures without action.

Dr. JAFFE. Let me again restate simply what the basis of this special funds is. The original concept the administration asked for was a reprograming situation-if one agency was not moving sufficiently ahead and another agency was making real progress, money would be reallocated to support the efforts of that agency making progress. Mr. ADDABBO. Based on what you knew, give me a report or statement where this money is going to go.

Dr. JAFFE. This mechanism was devised by Congress and it was devised in a way that said we don't want you taking money away from any other agency to give to another. We will provide some money that shifts quickly. If an agency finds a fruitful path, move ahead. That was a congressional concept, not ours. If in fact Congress is changing its mind about the need for that

Mr. ADDABBO. We are not doing that but we are putting so much money for drug abuse and still have the problem with us. I want to be able to say we are spending $60 million for drug abuse because we are going to try to help in this field and in that field, and so forth. Dr. JAFFE. I will submit something for the record. We will give you our best estimation of where it will go.

Mr. ADDABBO. Fair enough.

(See p. 1135.)

Mr. EDWARDS. No questions.

METHADONE TREATMENT PROGRAMS

Mr. STOKES. Thank you.

Dr. Jaffe, I have concerns about your continued reliance on the methadone treatment programs. By your own admission in your testimony here you tell us that one who is addicted to heroin and who begins to receive methadone treatment, such person is being treated with another narcotic which he becomes addicted to. In the light of the fact that what you are doing in effect is substituting one narcotic for another, why this continued reliance upon methadone?

Dr. JAFFE. First of all, I am glad you asked because if there seems to be the impression that we are relying on it, it is not a correct one. We will show you what has happened in terms of the increase of Federal programs and you will see that in fact we have increased drug-free programs more than we have methadone programs. That is No. 1. The reason we have the appearance of relying on methadone is simply that the methadone programs have been much more responsible in terms of recordkeeping. If you go to any one of the several programs that do not use chemotherapeutic approaches, they keep no records. We cannot tell how many people are waiting and how many are treated. We cannot tell how well people have done, although we suspect they have done reasonably well. We do know there are 30,000 people seeking treatment with methadone. We are saying those treatment approaches that help people become law-abiding productive citizens should be made available to them and, where we can, we have increased drugfree programs. I would like to show you NIMH data and you can see what has happened over the last few months.

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