Our university has in the last half dozen years put a great deal of emphasis upon this, so that we give very complete guidance now to all students after they have been admitted as freshmen, but before they attend their first class. As a consequence of this guidance, one-third of them change their programs before they actually start their year's work.

Mr. HALEY. Pennsylvania State Universary is a land-grant college, is it not?

Mr. BERNREUTER. It is, sir.

Mr. HALEY. Supported by the State of Pennsylvania?

Mr. BERNREUTER. That is right, sir.

Mr. HALEY. I was going to ask you about this depressed industrial area you talked about, but I won't put you on the spot.

Mr. BERNREUTER. We have them in Pennsylvania, unfortunately. Mr. HALEY. I think we have them all over.

I think that is all.

Mr. George?

Mr. GEORGE. With respect to change in programs, which the gentleman from Florida just mentioned, the law permits now only one change, as I understand it. Isn't it possible that a youngster, even after he is out of the service, may desire to enter and think he is going to, and change his mind more than once and come out with say a good engineering degree after two tries in other programs?

Mr. BERNREUTER. It is awfully important to the young men that they consider carefully and have the very best guidance, because even after a period of military service some of them are uncertain. When they try a very specific program at first and find it is unsuited to them, they make one change, it has to be the right change or they lose their benefits.

Mr. GEORGE. Isn't it possible that one more change might make a much more successful student in some exceptional cases?

Mr. BERNREUTER. I do not think this is a very serious problem, sir, because most of the universities are now providing reasonably good guidance and I think a very small proportion of boys are actually in need of the second change. It would help a few of them.

I find very little tendency on the part of any of these young men to change frivolously. They make mistakes in changing. So maybe a second chance, rather a third chance, would be helpful to some, but it would not help a great many.

Mr. GEORGE. You can see no harm in it?

Mr. BERNREUTER. No harm at all, sir.

Mr. HALEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Bernreuter.

The next witness is Mary M. Condon, assistant secretary of the Department of Rural Education, NEA.

I might say that from the point of beauty we have improved the situation from anything we have had here in the committee the last several days.

We are very happy to have you with the committee this morning. You may proceed with your testimony.

Do you have a written statement?

STATEMENT OF MARY M. CONDON, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF RURAL EDUCATION, NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION

Miss CONDON. Yes, sir, I have.

I think the committee should know that Mr. Haley is a good friend of mine because of some strong Montana connections.

I am Mary M. Condon, assistant secretary of the Department of Rural Education of the National Education Association. It might be of interest to the committee that I am a former State superintendent of public instruction of the great and sovereign State of Montana and, oddly enough, spent a small tour of duty in a college in Montana as the dean of men.

Mr. FINO. Dean of what?

Miss CONDON. Of men.

Mr. HALEY. I notice that my colleague from New York is surprised. I think she would make an excellent dean.

Mr. FINO. No question about it. I only wish I had had one when I went to college.

Miss CONDON. This unusual circumstance came about because, following 2 years of service with the American Red Cross in India, I was employed at Eastern Montana College in Billings, a school that was largely at that time given over to the education of teachers and was largely composed of women in the student body. With the advent of the GI bill of rights in World War II the college was flooded with a great number of young men. They had never planned on having a dean of men because they had a rather low enrollment of that particular category of student. So the president just extended my activities as dean of women to also being dean of men. It didn't last very long.

The department of rural education, NEA, supports passage of S. 1138, popularly known as the cold war veterans GI bill.

Since one of the motivating forces behind the original GI education bill was Howard A. Dawson, then serving as legislative director of the National Education Association, and now executive secretary of the department of rural education, NEA, we have consistently had a strong interest in this legislation.

We are well aware that educational opportunities are less available to young people from the rural and small town communities we represent. At the same time, enlistments in the Armed Forces by rural nonfarm youth are high. This may be in part due to lack of job opportunity in the hometown as well as to lack of educational opportunity within the financial ability of the rapidly decreasing economic status of rural people. We believe, however, that it also reflects the traditional patriotism of rural America in times of national stress such as that engendered by the present cold war atmosphere. We therefore are particularly interested in enactment of S. 1138 because we feel it is one way of providing the expanded opportunity which rural and small community youth need to equip themselves for a meaningful life in a rapidly changing world. In addition, we support S. 1138 for the following reasons:

1. We believe that economically, just in terms of dollars and cents, the experience gained under the previous programs for World War

II and Korean veterans demonstrates that this investment in the education of our young men and women yields back, in additional taxes on higher incomes earned by the recipients, more revenue to the Government than was initially expended.

2. We believe that the higher standards for acceptance into the armed services, in this increasingly highly technical and scientific age, make it imperative that our best young minds be eagerly available for our country's service. These are found not alone in families financially able to finance a student through college, but in all walks of life. At present those young men whose parents can finance their higher education may, by continuing through college graduate programs, defer the responsibility of military service until qualified for officer's status, engaged in essential industry, married with children or physically disabled; thus, increasing appreciably their chance of avoiding military service. Those others, often physically and mentally superior, but economically disadvantaged, serve either through enlistment or the draft, in the Armed Forces for from 2 to 4 years. Upon discharge they find a narrowed job market for men of their age because of a military training experience not marketable in a commercial field, a considerably and prohibitively higher cost for college attendance, and frequently a feeling of frustration and discontent at what seems to be less than fairness on the part of the Nation they served. We believe the morale and thus the efficiency of our troops would be greatly improved by enactment of S. 1138.

3. The effect of the veterans on our institutions of higher learning and on our technical vocational programs has been documented time and again. Our department is particularly aware of the beneficial effects of the on-the-farm training programs, and the leadership role those once enrolled are now playing in our rural farm communities and organizations. Higher standards, better teaching, the stimulation of new research on the part of college faculties, a new sense of purpose in the student bodies of our colleges-they have all been indirect but badly needed results of the previous GI bills. The continued presence of veterans on any campus is highly desirable for these reasons alone.

4. While we wholeheartedly have supported, and will continue to work for, scholarships for all who are qualified to attend institutions of higher learning we feel this Nation has a special responsibility to those who serve in the Armed Forces. We believe that these young men and women, by the very fact that the times are as they are, stand more than any other group constantly in the shadow of personal disaster. At any time, day or night, they must be prepared, without a moment's hesitation, to risk their lives in the defense of this Nation. Many are engaged daily in activities which make the dangers of combat in previous wars mild by comparison. Personnel who work with explosives, missiles, supersonic planes, experimental endurance tests and the like are risking their lives every moment to a considerably higher degree than many veterans of World War II who received the benefits of the previous GI bills-as we believe was, and is, proper. For very few, if any, military personnel have any control over the jobs to which they are assigned and, therefore, should not be penalized for situations over which they have no control.

5. Finally, we believe that this Nation is founded on the basic philosophy of the importance of the individual, and that the worth

of each individual should never be overlooked. The provisions of S. 1138 give opportunity to the individual to prove his worth, through the maintenance of a high scholastic average. However, the loan provisions of the bill still make it possible for a young person of average talents—and we have great faith in the average American— to pursue an education also. Such a program recognizes on the one hand the value of the program to the Nation, on the other hand the value of the program to the individual. This seems to us to be just.

We, therefore, strongly urge the passage of S. 1138 or basically similar legislation as beneficial to our Nation's growth and security, as well as simple justice to the members of the Armed Forces for the great contribution they make to us all.

Mr. HALEY. Are there any questions?

Mr. Slack?

Mr SLACK. Mr. Chairman, I don't necessarily address this question to the witness.

I would like to know, if this statement is correct, that under present law any young man who remains in college up to and including the age of 26, then is not subject to military service; is that correct?

Miss CONDON. No, sir. I think if he goes to college, and through this method defers his military reasonsibility, he is still subject to the draft until he is 35. My point was, after he has had a college education, he is much more apt to go into officer training than he is to be footslogging around with a gun on his shoulder. He also has more of an opportunity to marry, and it is quite likely he will have some children which then will defer him because of his parenthood. He also may find, if he is fortunate enough to graduate with a good degree in engineering, that he will be engaged as a civilian in an essential industry and avoid military service. These are the reasons I was attempting to outline as to why a man who went to college and had an advantage over the one who couldn't afford to go.

Mr. SLACK. Then the young man is subject to military service up to the age of 35?

Miss CONDON. I believe so, if he goes to college and secures a deferment for that reason.

Mr. SLACK. Thank you very much.

Mr. HALEY. Mr. Fino, would you like to inquire of the dean of men?

Mr. Fixo. It is always a pleasure to have a woman testify before this committee, because we very seldom have the opportunity to listen to the weaker sex on this committee.

I am sure that you heard the testimony of the previous witness. Miss CONDON. Yes, sir.

Mr. FINO. He said, speaking of veterans coming out of the service, that their scholastic records average higher than those of the nonveterans. Do you agree with that statement?

Miss CONDON. From my own experience, sir, I would say this was true in our quite small college in Montana. But I think there is statistical evidence on this very subject available in the Veterans' Administration, and also in the division of higher education in the U.S. office. I think this has been true.

I know from my own experience that those young men who were veterans, when they went to school, as I say, had more purpose in

their program. They didn't get so involved with being cheerleaders and spent a little more time with the deeper parts of the program. Mr. FINO. In other words, they were more mature?

Miss CONDON. Yes, sir; and they were better able to profit, usually, from the experience of college.

Mr. FINO. Have you found from your experience, associated with this organization, that there are many veterans who have returned from military service and who have been trying to get into college but found that financially they were unable to do so?

Miss CONDON. I have spent some time as a senior hostess at the local USO, and I have a very attractive niece who is a junior hostess there

Mr. FINO. I am sure she is, if she takes after you.

Miss CONDON. Things being as they are, I know quite a bit about the young men through my niece. Most of them are in service because they couldn't go to college, and most of them are most eager to have me impress upon you gentlemen the basic truth of what I presented to you here.

I find in them a sense of bitterness that, because they couldn't go, now they can't go, and that other fellows with whom they graduated from high school have gone on to college, and some are married and they are probably not going into the service, but if they do, they will go in as officers. This is a source of economic class distinction that is not good for the morale of the troops, to some degree. I think it is wrong.

Mr. FINO. Of course, you and I know that there is nothing compulsive behind this legislation. It is a good student who will get the full benefit of this type legislation.

Miss CONDON. It is optional.

Mr. FINO. The poor student will certainly be thrown out after the first year if he doesn't meet the standards or the requirements. Miss CONDON. Most of them won't find that they are able to live too high on the hog, as we would say in Montana, on $110 a month, in this day and age.

Mr. FINO. I thought we had that problem only in New York.
Miss CONDON. Even in Montana, sir.

Mr. FINO. Thank you.

Mr. HALEY. If you are one of the senior hostesses down there, maybe the committee ought to go down and take a look at this new USO.

Miss CONDON. I am sure the USO would be delighted.

Mr. HALEY. As pretty as you are, and as young a lady as you are, being a senior hostess down there, I don't know, maybe we had better go into that.

Miss CONDON. I haven't been acting as a senior hostess much lately because I have been busy with a few other things.

Mr. HALEY. Mr. Flynn?

Mr. FLYNN. For the record would you state whether NEA is a private or public organization.

Miss CONDON. Sir, it is a private organization. It is a professional association. The entire membership of the NEA is 700,000 school teachers. The group that I am representing is largely the county superintendents of schools, and it is about 2,000. There are only 3,000 of those altogether.