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REACTION TO GAO REPORT Mr. BENJAMIN. Please discuss your reaction to the recent GAO report on the proliferation of special police forces in the District. What changes can be made in the Capitol Police Department? Can other services be absorbed? Should they be? Can the Capitol Police with their current employment strength assume any of the other forces responsibilities without an increase in size?

[The following response was supplied for the record:) As referred to in the letter to the Chairman of the Capitol Police Board no changes are recommended. The Capitol Police would be unable to assume responsibilities of the other forces without an increase in manpower.

METROPOLITAN POLICE DETAIL Mr. BENJAMIN. Do other members of the subcommittee have questions for the Capitol Police? * Mr. SLACK. I would like to follow up a bit on the chairman's questions of a while ago, Chief Powell.

Chief POWELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SLACK. How many people, officers, are detailed to Capitol Hill from the Metropolitan Police force this year?

Chief POWELL. Twenty-nine at present.
Mr. SLACK. Twenty-nine.
Chief POWELL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SLACK. What are the ranks of these men?

Chief POWELL. I am one. I am from the Metropolitan. As you know, I have been detailed here for 20 years.

Mr. SLACK. How many are above the rank of sergeant?

Chief POWELL. We have two acting captains. We have three lieutenants.

Mr. SLACK. Have any of these officers been promoted since the expression of the committee in this report in the current year, as reported to the chairman?

Chief POWELL. Not except going from acting to permanent on which recommendation this committee and the Congress has final approval.

Mr. SLACK. Do these people have a competitive examination for upgrading?

Chief POWELL. Yes, sir, in the Metropolitan they have a competitive examination.

AMOUNT PAID TO METROPOLITAN POLICE Mr. SLACK. I note in the current fiscal year there was $1,421,000 paid to the Metropolitan Police for some 34 positions; is that correct?

Chief POWELL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SLACK. And this year for 1980 you are asking for $1,297,000.

Chief POWELL. Yes, sir. Actually, Mr. Chairman, that has been amended. We conferred with the Inspector of the Metropolitan Police on that whole thing, and since his presentation one sergeant has retired, and when he made out this, it was 30 rather than 29, and then there are some other differences of opinion as to the computation of it. We now have a new figure of $1,263,000.

Mr. SLACK. One more question, Mr. Chairman, if I may.

eported to of thave any

There is a surcharge attached to this figure, is there not?
Chief POWELL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SLACK. What is a surcharge?

Chief POWELL. Surcharge is an arrangement that I might say I didn't have anything to do with. Somehow the city government arrived at an overall cost pertaining to their total outlay for retirement and the operation of the training facility, including the police and fire clinic, et cetera, and it came up to this 61.4 percent of the actual salaries of the active members of the force, and they presented that to the respective committees here I believe some time ago.

Mr. SLACK. Would it be fair for me to say that out of the appropriation of $1.4 million, that about $540,000 was a surcharge? Am I in the ball park?

Chief POWELL. Well, sir, I can give you the exact figure on that. The actual salary compilation was $682,029. A projection was made allowing for overtime and longevity of $100,588. Then the surcharge was the $480,382.

Mr. SLACK. Do these officers from downtown who are detailed to Capitol Hill by Metropolitan have any special qualifications other than what your people have on the Hill?

Chief POWELL. Yes, sir, to some degree. Primarily I think they have in-depth experience. I don't like to undercut my own people. I am very proud of the Capitol Police force, and I like to think that I have contributed somewhat to our advancement over the last 20 years. They are fine officers. However, there is a certain degree of experience that you are able to gain downtown in the middle of homicide Squads or robbery squads or whatever that we, I am proud to say, can't give, because we don't want that type of crime situation where they get that much practice up here.

Then, in addition to that, we have some jurisdictional problems which we can handle by having a few Metropolitan men here under our supervision. We are able to respond, for instance, if some member of the House or of the Senate may have some problem that needs investigating with some skilled, intelligent person, which may involve some situation other than on the Capitol grounds.

APPRECIATION OF CAPITOL POLICE Mr. SLACK. Let me say finally, if I may, Mr. Chairman, that it is my judgment that you, Chief Powell, have done an outstanding job down through the 20 years you have been here.

Chief POWELL. Thank you, sir. Mr. SLACK. All of the force that I have had any contact with has been courteous at all times, and in my judgment they are people of high quality, and I have had nothing but good comments from the public that visits Capitol Hill. They always have something nice to say about the Capitol Hill Police, and I want you to know for the record I think you have done an outstanding job.

Chief POWELL. Thank you, sir. Mr. BENJAMIN. Mr. Rudd? Mr. RUDD. To follow up on what Mr. Slack is talking about, there is no question that everybody appreciates a police officer when you need one. I certainly do. And I appreciate the good work that you

35-533 0 - 79 - 17 (Pt. 2)

do up here. Was the Capitol Hill Police as such started right after the shoot-out by the Puerto Ricans in 1954?

Chief POWELL. They had a force back years ago but I think it took on a new approach at that point, yes, sir. In other words, there was a definite need for security and it became more apparent.

SURCHARGE FOR METROPOLITAN POLICE

Mr. Rudd. You are talking about the surcharges for the Metropolitan detail, and I think the surcharge has now been established at 61.4 percent, has it not?

Chief Powell. Yes, sir. Mr. Rudd. Why do the D.C. authorities utilize that particular figure, do you know?

Chief POWELL. No, sir. Mr. RUDD. Would you find out and put it in the record for me, please? I would like to know that, because it jumped overnight from 30 percent to 61.4 percent, and I think it is important to know why. [See page 1390 for the reply.)

PHASEOUT OF METROPOLITAN POLICE DETAIL Mr. Rudd. I think you also came up here originally on special assignment from the Metropolitan Police Department?

Chief POWELL. Yes, sir, I was a civil service captain when I came up here.

Mr. Ruds. But there is no interchange. I mean the Metropolitan Police Department does not receive the Capitol Hill Police Department for any assignment at all?

Chief POWELL. No, sir. That has never been.

Mr. RUDD. Wasn't the original intent to phase out the Metropolitan Police detail?

Chief POWELL. It still is, generally, yes, sir.
Mr. Rudd. But it hasn't been done?

Chief POWELL. Yes, sir, it is being done. As the men retire, they are not being replaced.

Mr. RUDD. Rosters of Metropolitan Police provided for prior hearing records show that several metropolitan officers did retire or left for some reason since 1975, and seven people were brought back in to replace some of the people that did leave. Out of the 19 Metropolitan Police who have left your rolls since 1975, I think there are 11 who have not been replaced, but the others were replaced.

Can I have some facts on that for the record?

Chief POWELL. Yes, sir. I don't quite follow you on that. In the last few years as the Metropolitan men have retired, they haven't been replaced.

Mr. RUDD. Seven new Metropolitan Police officers were added to the detail since 1975, according to the information that I have from prior hearing records.

Chief POWELL. No, sir, that is not correct information. You may have somehow, and I don't have those figures-

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Mr. RUDD. If that is not true, fine. If it is, I would like to know whether or not that is going to slow down the eventual phasing out of the Metropolitan Police officers assigned here.

Chief POWELL. No, sir.
Mr. Rudd. Do you think that is a good idea?

Chief POWELL. Yes, I think personally, and while we are on that subject I would like to point out that I am so confident of the Capitol Police force that we now have, and with our training and our hopeful advancement towards professionalization, I have recommended and the board approved Inspector Abernathy, a Capitol captain actually, to be promoted. He is an acting inspector and he is in charge of the whole investigations section. He also recommended these other promotions.

Mr. RUDD. Do you feel that the caliber of expertise of the Capitol Hill Police is sufficient that they could eventually take over all responsibilities without any advice or permanent assignment from the Metropolitan Police Department?

Chief POWELL. Yes, sir, I think that that is the case. However, there would come a time, for instance, God forbid, if you had a homicide. We are not going to have that practice.

Mr. RUDD. Isn't some sort of liaison arrangement made with other law enforcement agencies in instances like this?

Chief. POWELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RUDD. The Metropolitan Police and the FBI are really responsible for it anyway.

Chief POWELL. Yes, sir. Mr. RUDD. I am just wondering, do you have a target date when the phase out of the Metropolitan Police detail will take place completely?

Chief POWELL. I would recommend that it be staggered until such time as all those aboard retire, to make it a better transition. Mr. RUDD. This has been going on for 24 years.

Chief POWELL. Yes, sir, but it wasn't being phased out. When I came up here there was a total of 10. Then it expanded to 50 at one time, and we have now got back to where we are. The point is that some of those people, in fact all of those who came here, came at the request or with the approval of the board, and in some cases the leadership was involved, but those people have come here and having brought the experience that they had when they came here, are becoming also more acquainted with the operation here.

Mr. HARDING. May I interrupt for one second to make a comment?

Mr. RUDD. Yes. Mr. HARDING. There is something that you gentlemen can be of great help in pursuing to its fulfillment.

Now the board has been insisting and what we would like to see is a phase out of the Metropolitan Police detail when it is practical in the interest of the security of the Capitol. One of the possible solutions being considered is the jurisdiction of the Capitol Police off of Capitol Hill. We have had several pieces of legislation introduced which have fallen by the wayside for various reasons, some have even charged us with attempting to set up another Federal police force or something, but we only request authority on a caseby-case basis. Such as, if the Chief had the authority to escort you,

in case there was a threat on you, over to the National Airportright now if we take any one of you over to the National Airport or Dulles we are violating our jurisdiction.

Mr. RUDD. I spent a career with the FBI, and I see no reason why good relations can't be established so that they will agree to do this. Police departments from various towns and communities that overlap each other do this without any trouble at all, unless somebody is trying to get something done that they really shouldn't get done.

Mr. HARDING. If we had the people who on a case-by-case basis could carry this out-

COST OF METROPOLITAN POLICE OFFICER Mr. Rudd. I notice that these 29 metropolitan police officers that are up here this year are going to cost individually about $44,724 apiece. I think that is pretty expensive for people on loan.

Chief POWELL. Yes, sir. I am not sure, however, that the overall picture of the contribution of the Federal Government to the operation of the District Government, whether or not this amount would show up in some other request, if it were not here. I suspect it might. Mr. BENJAMIN. We will recess at this point until 1 o'clock. [Recess.] Mr. BENJAMIN. The hearing will resume.

The Chair will open up the transcript for questions to be submitted by Mr. Rudd, directed to the Capitol Police regarding certain inquiries that he desires to make. We would appreciate your response on the record to those particular inquiries.

EXPLANATION OF POLICE EXPENDITURES AND REQUESTS I am going to also submit question No. 16 for a response on the record.

Question. In fiscal year 1978, the expenditure for the Capitol Police Board was $1,067,731. No moneys were spent as of December 31, 1978, to reimburse the Metropolitan Police Department. What reimbursements have been made during the past two months? Given this level of reimbursement, explain how the fiscal year 1978 request was calculated. [The information follows:]

Reimbursement for metropolitan detail for fiscal year 1978 Period covered

Amount October 1, 1977, through December 31, 1977.

$361,568.89 January 1, 1978, through April 8, 1978...........

396,403.31 April 9, 1978, through July 1, 1978...............

309,758.46 July 2, 1978, through September 30, 1978...

361,141.72 Total reimbursement for fiscal year 1978...

1,428,872.38 Amount returned to the treasury $143,127.62.

Computation was arrived at by adding salary plus approximately 10 days of overtime pay and holiday pay plus longevity multiplied by 61.4 percent surcharge. ($346,479.11 was paid for reimbursement for the period of October 1, 1978 through December 30, 1978 in fiscal year 1979.)

[The following questions were submitted by Mr. Rudd:] Question. You stated that the surcharge paid with appropriated funds to the District of Columbia government, in connection with the Metropolitan Police detail

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