fines, and then, in addition to that, you have to have a certain amount of loamy stuff. The CHAIRMAN. It is a mixture of clay and gravel, isn't it? Mr. KINGSLEY FERGUSON. Yes; it is a very low-grade gravel and in order to get it stabilized The CHAIRMAN (interposing). It is a sort of roughened gravel mixed with clay which, when properly handled, will make a fair base for a black-top road. Mr. KINGSLEY FERGUSON. And Captain Kibler and I were working very closely together on this problem at that time and we were of a little difference of opinion on the thing. It is purely a matter of opinion, but he agreed with me that from observation he couldn't tell whether one met specification or the other did, and we were both willing to leave that up to the laboratory because on personal observation it was literally impossible to tell. The CHAIRMAN. Is there available in that part of Tennessee gravel and crushed stone? Mr. KINGSLEY FERGUSON. Yes; but at a much higher price. Another interesting thing about the chert, when Mr. Cartwright was in our office and complaining about the rejections of chert, Mr. Atkin suggested that he call in this disinterested laboratory, and so right then and there I telephoned Nashville and got hold of, I think it was Mr. Barrow, of the Barrow-Agee Laboratories, and asked him if he didn't have a man whom he could assign on a monthly fee to Mr. Cartwright's pit because we were as much interested in getting this confusion out of the picture as they were; and he told me that the only man he had in the State who knew chert was the manager of his Nashville office, and that he couldn't spare him because he had other duties besides that and naturally he couldn't let him go down there. I therefore asked him for suggestions as to who else in the State might be expert in the matter of chert, and he told me that he didn't think there was anybody else there and he could not give me any suggestions. The CHAIRMAN. Is the supply of this chert very limited? Mr. KINGSLEY FERGUSON. Yes. It is all over around Camden and every pit is under lease or ownership to some individual. The CHAIRMAN. I was talking to a stone and gravel company up at Paducah, Ky., the owner of which told me he had made some bids to your organization on the delivery of stone and gravel at a price that would compare favorably with this chert price. Do you remember anything about that? Mr. OMAN. That price was by the ton, delivered f. o. b. cars, and you have to add 25 percent to the ton price to get the yard price, and with the high price of labor that we were using, it was just prohibitive to try to use the stone or gravel or slag. We wanted to change over, because this thing has been a headache to us from the beginning. The CHAIRMAN. I should think it would be. Mr. OMAN. It certainly has. The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, Mr. Manier. Mr. MANIER. I have here affidavits of James I. Bush, L. L. Dempseytwo of Dempsey's, maybe three--and a rather long one of Martin Gibson. They are inspectors. They state they have never been arbitrary at all, and this difficulty developed from the standpoint of the contractor. These loads were being hauled by truckmen who own their own trucks and got an appreciable part of this cost, and a lot of these fellows, when they would have a truck rejected, would drive down the road and come back and get it rejected a second time. I am talking about the Cartwright drivers. These affidavits are also to the effect that there was never a single rejection made except on the test of the Mississippi Testing Laboratory. Mr. FULTON. Do they give an explanation of that charge that Captain Kibler made that after the quartermaster's inspector had been withdrawn during a day in which practically no rejections had taken place, that there were a lot of rejections by your inspectors? Mr. MANIER. Only in this respect Mr. KINGSLEY FERGUSON (interposing). I might answer that. That is perfectly possible and might occur. Mr. FULTON. In other words, there were Mr. KINGSLEY FERGUSON. Just a minute. Because during the operation of the pit the shovel is constantly moving from one part to another and it frequently becomes necessary to open up a new portion of that pit. Now, one of the things that you will find in these affidavits is that Cartwright, instead of stripping the top soil which is undesirable material, back so that they could expose the chert itself and get pure material, frequently blasted this stuff on down into the pit, top soil and all, and then they begin digging from that particular portion, and the top soil and everything would go in and a whole series of loads would come in with that material and consequently will be rejected. Mr. FULTON. And that is the explanation that is given in these affidavits? Mr. KINGSLEY FERGUSON. I don't know that that is the explanation for that particular instance, but that happens. Mr. FULTON. Is there any explanation in the affidavit of that specific instance? Mr. MANIER. I don't think so. Mr. FULTON. You remember Captain Kibler told us he was much surprised that as long as the Government inspector was there, there were relatively few rejections, but when the Government inspector went home, there were a lot. That could have been, as you say, by running into a seam of bad material. Mr. KINGSLEY FERGUSON. That is right. Mr. FULTON. But do these affidavits take up that question of bad material? Mr. MANIER. Perhaps I should really at this point make some explanation about these affidavits because it will answer a lot of questions you have in mind. You will remember we adjourned in Memphis on-was it Wednesday? The CHAIRMAN. Tuesday evening. Mr. MANIER. And I returned to my office and spent the day there Wednesday and then went down to Milan on Thursday and took every 1 See Affidavits Nos. 27, 28, and 29, appendix, pp. 3434, 3435, and 3437. See also. Affidavits Nos. 6-A, p. 3376; 9-A, p. 3406; 9-B, p. 3406; Memorandum 9-C, p. 3413; Memorandum 24-A, p. 3422 ; and Affidavit No. 24-B, p. 3429. body available in my office of the younger men, four or five of them, to prepare these affidavits. We did not have access to the actual record of that thing until the following Saturday and I came on up here Sunday, and these affidavits have been prepared from our notes of what was testified to, from the newspaper reports, and some of them after they got the record, from the record, so they didn't always, in taking these affidavits, know exactly the point they were to meet. You can imagine what a task it was to prepare as many as we have here in the way we have had to do it. We even have coming here this morning by air mail affidavits on some of the testimony that happened day before yesterday up here, but it was by telephone conversation and recollection of the record. So the fact that one of these affidavits is not fully responsive to the exact testimony doesn't mean that it couldn't have been if they had known what the exact testimany was. I think that really should be in the record because they have been prepared under great stress, and the time limit in preparing them is practically as the reporter gets out the transcript daily. The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate that. Mr. MANIER. There is also the testimony of the effort of Cartwright to try to bribe these inspectors. One of them is a rather amusing affidavit. It says: 1 While I was there, Mr. Cartwright, the owner of the Cartwright Construction Co. approached me and discussed the inspection of the material and told me that if I would give him a break and not reject so much of his material, that he had plenty of whisky and a mighty nice little girl at the hotel at Camden for me. This is the amusing part: To this I replied that I had my own social connections and all the whisky I wanted. That is L. L. Dempsey. CHERT CONTRACTS Mr. MANIER. There is the affidavit of R. W. Kirby : 2 Some time during the summer of 1941 I was asked to attend a meeting by my superior, Mr. W. H. Faulk. Present at this meeting were the following: Mrs. artwright, who was manager of the Cartwright Construction Co., which was delivering chert to the Wolf Creek ordnance plant and Milan ordnance depot; Captain Kilber; Mr. W. H. Faulk; Lieutenant Bruce; and several others. At this meeting I was accused, either directly or inferentially, by Mrs. Cartwright-who had in her possession several affidavits, the contents of which were not known to me, with the exception of one which I read-of interfering with the drivers of her rucks delivering chert to the above-named projects. The interference complained was my use of abusive language to truck drivers of the Cartwright Construction Co. and my insistence upon them hauling for Memphis Stone & Gravel Co. I never at any time interfered with the drivers of the trucks of the Cartwright nstruction Co. delivering chert to the Wolf Creek ordnance plant and the *an ordnance depot. I did not abuse them nor did I suggest to these drivers haul for any other concern. I can truthfully say that I never as much as rgged in any conversation with either the truck drivers of the Cartwright nstruction Co. or the Memphis Stone & Gravel Co. I was not acquainted with ery of them, and had no cause or reason to engage in a conversation with them. The CHAIRMAN. Who was the signer of that affidavit? 1 See Affidavit No. 30. appendix, p. 3442. See also Affidavit No. 30-A, appendix, p. 3443. 2 See Affidavit No. 26, appendix, p. 3433. See also Exhibits 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 12, and 13 attached to Affidavit No. 9-B, appendix, pp. 3408, 3410-3412. Mr. MANIER. That was R. W. Kirby, and I think there are some other affidavits. In connection with the explanation I made, too, that is another reason why I am not quite as familiar with these affidavits as I would like to be, because some of them came in by air mail this morning. They have been coming in, and only by the hardest effort have I been able to familiarize myself with them at all. The CHAIRMAN. Of course, you can file all these affidavits. Mr. MANIER. I want to. I am filing them all. The CHAIRMAN. We have no objection to your filing as many as you like. Mr. MANIER. You will remember, too, in the record that there was testimony by Captain Kibler that in his opinion there was a kickback in this record. He made that before the House investigating committee without saying there that it was hearsay, but that he believed it was just an insinuation or charge. Mr. FULTON. It was not the statement made before the House committee that we were interested in, but the one he made under oath to us that an employee of the contractor, John Lord, had told him. Mr. MANIER. I was leading up to that, because I have John Lord's affidavit here in which he answers the statement that it was he, John Lord, who had said there was a kick-back. I am leaving out the formal part of the affidavit. Mr. FULTON. There is an affidavit of John Lord? I knew Capt. George Kibler, who was an executive officer for the constructing quartermaster at these plants. I have seen an awful lot of him, in fact he has been my guest on several occasions. I also felt close enough to him to kid him about most anything. I had absolutely nothing to do with the chert contracts on the job. One of the chert contractors was the Cartwright Construction Co., and Mrs. J. M. Cartwright acted as manager for Cartwright Construction Co. Mrs. Cartwright is a right attractive lady, and Captain Kibler seemed to take a great liking to her. It was common gossip all over the construction job about Captain Kibler's attentions to her and whenever Mrs. Cartwright was around the administration building it was noticed by me and the others that Captain Kibler was always with her and would get her off in the corner and talk to her both in his office and in the hallways. I kept kidding Captain Kibler about Mrs. Cartwright. I understand that Captain Kibler at the Senate hearing in Memphis on November 17, 1941, testified that at one time when bids were readvertised for surfacing material for Milan ordnance depot that I told him something about the Memphis Stone Co. making a bid for chert. I couldn't have done this and could not have given the figures to which he testified, "namely $1.75 to meet specifications and $1.55 to be what they call pit run That is quoted from the testimony * for I didn't know and do not now know anything about any such bid. I further understand that Captain Kibler testified on that same day to the effect that I made a statement to him and this is quoted from the record he told me that means Lord told Kibler, as he testified that I had been informed by a party, whom he 1 See Affidavit No. 6, appendix, p. 3375. See also Affidavit No. 6-A, appendix, p. 3376. again "he" is Lord considered reliable that the difference in cost represented a portion of a kick-back which has been made. I know that I did not make any such statement to him or anyone else relative to any chert contracts, for I had nothing to do with the chert contracts and I know that no one has gotten any kick-back or anything else improper on any contract from Ferguson-Oman Co. Every contract that has been let has been let and only let with the approval of the constructing quartermaster, and there would be no way for there to be any kick-back or anything even suspicious with any of these contracts. In fairness to Captain Kibler, I may have kidded him about Mrs. Cartwright, and may have said something to him about he had better be careful or someone would be suspecting things about him in connection with Mrs. Cartwright's contracts, which were approved by the constructing quartermaster, of which he was a staff member. If I used the word kick-back in talking to him, it was to say that he might get a kick-back from his relations with Mrs. Cartwright. Mr. FULTON. Is that the end of the affidavit? Mr. FULTON. Not particularly, unless there is something you are relying on; but I wanted to ask a few questions when you are through reading. Mr. MANIER (continuing):1 I further understand that Captain Kibler testified at the Senate hearing in Memphis on November 17, 1941, that I was engaged to marry into the family of Mr. Marshall Priest, of Huntingdon, Tenn. This statement is absolutely untrue and I don't think in fairness to the lady referred to that this reference should have been made, as my acquaintance with her had absolutely no bearing on the purchase of chert. At my expense and at the request of the Senate investigating committee, I attended the hearing at Memphis on November 18, 1941, but after appearing the committee did not call me as a witness. I was there at the committee's invitation and wanted to clear the record of these unwarranted insinuations and testimony. That is the full affidavit. RECORD OF WITNESSES' AFFIANT Mr. FULTON. Who was Mr. John Lord? Was he an employee of the contractor? Mr. MANIER. He was, as I understand it, an assistant purchasing agent. Mr. FULTON. Who employed him? Mr. Ferguson, did you employ him? Mr. KINGSLEY FERGUSON. No; Mr. O. E. Miller did. Mr. FULTON. That is this Mr. Miller who was relieved as personnel manager? Mr. KINGSLEY FERGUSON. Mr. Miller whom we terminated and sent to the Cleveland office because of reduction in force. Mr. FULTON. Not at the request of Major Hofto? Mr. KINGSLEY FERGUSON. No, sir; not at the request of Major Hofto. Mr. FULTON. Did he testify falsely on that? Mr. KINGSLEY FERGUSON. The situation was this: Mr. Miller's job of hiring was done. Our job from that point on was to reduce the force rather than increase it. We reached the peak of our employment and have continuously reduced it since he left." The CHAIRMAN. Who recommended Miller to your company? 1 Affidavit No. 6, appendix, p. 3375. See also Affidavit No. 6-A, appendix, p. 3376. |