Senator BREWSTER. What did he instruct you when he told you to come?

Mr. McKAY. To attend these hearings.

Senator BREWSTER. For what purpose?

Mr. MCKAY. No purpose was disclosed or mentioned.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you are down here at the expense of the Government for no reason at all.

Mr. McKAY. I don't think so, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. What instructions were you given?

Mr. McKAY. To attend these hearings.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is all?

Mr. MCKAY. That's all.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that all you have done?

Mr. MCKAY. So far, yes.

Senator BREWSTER. What men have you talked with while you have been here?

Mr. McKAY. I beg your pardon, sir?

Senator BREWSTER. With whom have you talked since you have been here?

Mr. MCKAY. Major Hofto, Major Horridge, a Mr. Davies, United States Attorney McClanahan, with you, sir, with Senator TrumanThe CHAIRMAN (interposing). All the talking you have done to me has been over this bench.

Mr. McKAY. Except as I asked you when you came in the room this morning to allow the people outside the rail to come in here.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right.

Senator BREWSTER. Mr. McKay, you came up here voluntarily to raise the question about whether or not the Army had been delinquent in producing these witnesses. I assume that was because of your highly responsible position with General Somervell's office. There have been further questions, which were even more embarrassing, raised that in the conversations which had taken place here with certain of our witnesses, there had not been an encouraging attitude toward their testimony, which very much disturbed this committee. Apparently you have talked with some of these witnesses. What was your purpose in talking to them, since you didn't know why you were sent here? You were sent here to attend the hearings.

Mr. McKAY. I can't answer that question, Senator.

Senator BREWSTER. You just happened to talk with them. It has created an extremely unfortunate impression, extremely unfortunate, and the absence of the witnesses who apparently had 5 days' notice and the reports of conversations with some of the witnesses who were here, who apparently might find their careers affected by the character of their answers, are not the kind of thing that I believe you would consider proper lines of activity.

Mr. MCKAY. Well, sir, let's be perfectly clear about it.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what we want to be.

Mr. MCKAY. There is no possible attitude on the part of the War Department to deny to this committee the attendance of any witness it wants.

The CHAIRMAN. I think the War Department couldn't do that if it wanted to. Just bear that in mind. When this committee subpenas a witness, he must come, no matter who he is.

Senator BREWSTER. You heard the evidence here as to reports by one of the officers who has testified about the apparent irresponsibility of one of the inspectors, and apparently nothing was done about it. I think it would warrant investigation.

Major HILL. May I make one statement, sir?
Senator BREWSTER. Yes, Major Hill.

Major HILL. The three witnesses that I was notified about were Mr. Thomas, Mr. Helzel, and Mr. Booth. On Saturday morning Mr. Clark called me in my office in the War Department and advised me that the commanding officer down here--I don't know where he got his information—said that he had no notification for Captain Hofto and certain other witnesses to appear before the committee. I have the names of those in my brief case. They were notified Saturday morning, and the Quartermaster General's office assured me that those witnesses would be here-Captain Hofto, the officer that we ordered from Louisiana, and also some civilians.

Mr. MCKAY. That is exactly my point, Mr. Chairman.

Senator BREWSTER. Just a minute. The first three men, who, I understand, are civilian personnel, were notified by wire on November 12.

Major HILL. That was the information I received this morning. Senator BREWSTER. November 12.

Major HILL. That was the information that I received this morning from the Quartermaster General.

Senator BREWSTER. And you have no reason to question the correctness of that?

Major HILL. No, sir.

Senator BREWSTER. That is the point which we are immediately concerned with. Those were the three witnesses that we were concerned about.

Mr. FULTON. As to the other two, they are here, I understand, Major Hill, and, of course, the committee's reason for not thinking it necessary to make special arrangements for it was that the committee didn't then know that they had been transferred out of this project. We assumed that only those three had. We now find that five or six men were transferred from this project—

Major HILL. I see.

Mr. FULTON. Some of whom have been brought back.
Major HILL. I wanted to make my position clear.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it is. That is all right. And we are very anxious to have Mr. McKay make his position clear. This is the first time that this committee has run into a stumbling block from the War Department, and if the Quartermaster General's Department is not inclined to cooperate with this committee, we want to know it now, and we will take the proper steps to see that they do cooperate. Mr. MCKAY. There cannot be a possible scintilla of truth in that, Mr. Chairman, because the Quartermaster General is anxious to cooperate to the fullest extent with this committee.

The CHAIRMAN. I was only judging their attitude from the fact that our key witnesses are late in arriving on 5 days' notice.

Mr. MCKAY. I am terribly sorry that that is the case, if it is the case, and wish the notification had been longer.

311932-42-pt. 9-5

Senator BREWSTER. You will have an opportunity tomorrow to clarify this with your superior, if you have any further statement to make, since you are going to be here.

Mr. McKAY. I am quite certain that my superior feels in that matter exactly as I do, that the War Department wants to cooperate to the fullest possible extent with your committee.

Senator BREWSTER. I am referring to the question of fact. You say that if these men had 5 days' notice they should be here. Mr. MCKAY. I did not say that, sir.

Senator BREWSTER. Well, then, what do you say?

Mr. McKAY. I don't know what notice they had, but I suspect that they did not have as much notice as would prompt the chairman to make the statement he made a the conclusion of this morning's session.

Senator BREWSTER. I am asking, on behalf of the chairman, that you clarify the facts. You seem to be here on some mission concerned with this thing. You are being paid, I assume, by the United States Government for some purpose?

Mr. MCKAY. Yes, sir.

Senator BREWSTER. The only purpose of this hearing is to find out whether or not the Government has gotten a square deal in this whole job, and as a gentleman on salary we will appreciate your cooperation. Now, we want to know why these men are not here, whether there is any sufficient excuse; and if you can clarify that for us we will be very happy.

Mr. McKay. I will try and find out, sir, when they were notified to appear.

The CHAIRMAN. The chairman's statement still stands that if these witnesses are transferred to China by the War Department, we will bring them back and hear them.

The committee will now stand adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 3:20 p. m., the committee recessed until 10 a. m., Tuesday, November 18, 1941.)

INVESTIGATION OF NATIONAL DEFENSE PROGRAM

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 18, 1941

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE

THE NATIONAL DEFENSE PROGRAM,

United States Court House, Memphis, Tenn.

The committee met at 9:03 a. m., pursuant to adjournment on Monday, November 17, 1941, in the United States Courthouse, Memphis, Tenn., Senator Harry S. Truman presiding.

Present: Senators Harry S. Truman (chairman) and Ralph O. Brewster.

Present also: Hugh A. Fulton, chief counsel.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

Mr. McKay. Is Mr. McKay here?

Senator BREWSTER. Did you notify him?

Mr. FULTON. Yes; I notified him through Major Hill, but he doesn't seem to be here.

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman seems to be late.

Is Mr. Loring here? Is Mr. Glatt here? It looks as if the committee is going to have to wait for somebody to arrive. I am not a Federal judge, or we could fine them for contempt.

Is Mrs. Cartwright here? We will let Mrs. Cartwright testify. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth before this committee, so help you God?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Take the chair right behind you, Mrs. Cartwright.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. J. M. CARTWRIGHT, CARTWRIGHT
CONSTRUCTION CO., CAMDEN, TENN.

CHERT CONTRACTS

The CHAIRMAN. I will appreciate it very much if you will outline for the committee the problems which you had to go through in your contract with the Ferguson-Oman Co. out here at Milan.

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. Well, on March 26 we were awarded the contract. We started delivering on March 31. And on April 9 we had some equipment bought, and they gave us a month to put it in. So we started back on May 9. We started having trouble with the trucks. They had reports out that we didn't have a contract and the trucks wouldn't haul for us.

Then on July 5 I received a letter canceling the contract, and I went over and talked to them-talked to Captain Kibler. And on July 7 we had a meeting over there, and on July 14 we started back to hauling. They reinstated the contract.

We got along all right until July 30, and they started rejecting the material. So we carried three samples to Nashville and had tests made on them, and they passed. Captain Kibler carried five, and his passed, except one minor irregularity. They kept on rejecting the gravel up until September 22, and since then we have gotten along all right.

The CHAIRMAN. What did they do with the rejected loads of chert that you hauled up there? What did you do?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. I made a stock pile over at Milan.

The CHAIRMAN. Are they now using that stock pile?
Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. No, sir; it is still there.

The CHAIRMAN. Still there. Have you had any information that the specifications were being let down so that you could use that stock pile?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. Yes; I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. You have had none?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. There has been a change of specifications since then.

The CHAIRMAN. They have changed it?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And you expect to sell that stock pile to these people down there?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Under the changed specification?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us about the Cartwright Construction Co.; just what sort of organization it is?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. What did you say?

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us what the Cartwright Construction Co. is. Who owns it?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. J. M. Cartwright.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, are you J. M. Cartwright?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. No, sir; that is my husband.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, is your husband actively engaged in the business?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. No. He has been ill for the past year.

The CHAIRMAN. You have been running the business?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you have any difficulty obtaining trucks and drivers?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the cause of that difficulty?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. Well, the report got out in Camden that another concern had the job and we didn't have a contract, and they wouldn't haul for us under those conditions. If they hauled for us, they couldn't haul for the other concern.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you have a contract?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You got that contract as the lowest bidder. Is that right?

Mrs. CARTWRIGHT. Yes, sir.