Mr. FULTON. At $29,000 a mile, that is a sum of around $140,000 for each of those roads.

Captain KIBLER. That is the way it adds up; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the necessity for so much road mileage out there, anyway? I drove around over that place Sunday, and it looked to me as if most of the roads went nowhere from nowhere, and I want to know the reason for so much road mileage.

Captain KIBLER. I can't give you any answer on that, Senator, because the road lay-out was made at the time I reported. I reported there approximately June 1st. The road lay-out-the plans-at that time had been approved, and a large percentage of the roads had been graded.

CONSTRUCTION OF STAFF HOUSES

Mr. FULTON. Are you familiar with staff housing?
Captain KIBLER. In a general way; yes.

Mr. FULTON. What were these houses for staff housing? Can you tell us generally what kind of houses they were, how many there were,

and so on?

Captain KIBLER. If my memory is correct, 32 were built. They were taken from a design which was built at the Ravenna ordnance in Ohio, remodeled and somewhat simplified for use to fit them to this particular climate, economizing somewhat in their construction. Mr. FULTON. What are those houses going to cost? Do you know? Captain KIBLER. The last figure I had when I left the job was in the neighborhood of $18,000 apiece for the structures themselves. Mr. FULTON. Did they have a cellar?

Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir; most of them have a basement under them.

Mr. FULTON. What is the construction of the basement?

Captain KIBLER. The basements are cement floors, with brick walls. The house itself is of frame construction.

Mr. FULTON. By frame construction, you mean the regular 2-by-4 construction?

Captain KIBLER. I wouldn't specify 2 by 4's. The dimension of the exterior side walls is largely 2 by 6, as are the rafters and similar things.

Mr. FULTON. Does it have sheathing and siding both?

Captain KIBLER. It has a composition sheathing, not wood sheathing, and wood siding.

Mr. FULTON. Does it have insulation?

Captain KIBLER. The sheathing serves as insulation, and they have used insulation in the attics.

Mr. FULTON. And in the interior, is it plaster and lath or beaverboard or what?

Captain KIBLER. No. With the exception of the bathroom, it is all "compo" board of one type or another.

Mr. FULTON. No plaster in it at all?

Captain KIBLER. No, sir; except in the bathroom.

Mr. FULTON. And how many rooms does it have?

Captain KIBLER. They vary somewhat, but the normal one has three

rooms on the first floor and approximately four on the second. The CHAIRMAN. Do they have a heating plant?

Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir; they use what is called an air-conditioning system-oil-fired hot air furnaces with forced circulation.

Mr. FULTON. And are there any other structures that are included in the cost of that house at $18,000, such as a garage or something of that kind, or is that extra?

Captain KIBLER. No, sir; that is extra.

Mr. FULTON. What does a garage cost?

Captain KIBLER. I wouldn't know. I never saw any figures on them. Mr. FULTON. Did you ever inspect those houses or garages during construction to note whether they were being put up efficiently or not? Captain KIBLER. Yes; I have driven through there. It was not under my supervision, but I did note that it appeared that there were considerably more men working on them than could be used efficiently. Mr. FULTON. Would you describe the actual situation that led you to that conclusion?

Captain KIBLER. Yes. One flagrant instance of it was when I was over and observed the construction of a single garage, and they had, if my memory is correct, 10 carpenters and four helpers putting up a single garage. I would call that excessive.

Mr. FULTON. And do you know of any reason that the Government should have contracted the erection of houses of this character on a cost-plus project instead of letting a bid for local builders to build similar houses?

Captain KIBLER. We probably would have gotten by cheaper if we could have let them out for bids, if we could have found enough builders to build them in the time that we needed them.

Mr. FULTON. Would you have any great difficulty in an area the size of Memphis in finding people who could build six- or seven-room houses?

Captain KIBLER. I should judge that between Nashville and Memphis and neighboring towns up there, we could have gotten sufficient people who could have put up five or six houses. We have five or six different firms who could put up the number necessary.

Mr. FULTON. You might even have been able to get them plastered for $18,000 apiece. Most of the $18,000 houses in this area have plaster in them, do they not?

The CHAIRMAN. I was told that the total cost of those houses, with garage and all that goes with them, is considerably over $23,000. You can buy a house with two more rooms, pay for the land, and have a house that is constructed for permanent use in the city of Washington, and with a contractor's profit, for a little less than $14,000, and you have more house than you have out there. It looks to me as if those houses could have been built for $6,000 apiece, and then the contractor could have made $2.000 on them.

Mr. FULTON. Generally speaking, with respect to questions of efficiency of labor, did you make inspections of the other portions of the project to see whether there were situations where there might be more laborers on a project or part of a project than could efficiently be used, such as in the case of that garage where 10 men were trying to build it?

Captain KIBLER. A short time before I observed that, I was informed by one of our time inspectors that he found 35 men working on a little well house. There were 2 foremen, 2 carpenter foremen, a

labor foreman, and the balance of the work was divided up amongst carpenters and laborers almost in equal numbers. Senator BREWSTER. What was the well house?

Captain KIBLER. We have wells at the project from which we get our water supply.

Senator BREWSTER. How large would the well houses be?

Captain KIBLER. They are approximately 10 by 12.
Senator BREWSTER. How high?

Captain KIBLER. I should judge the eave heights are approximately 10 feet, in some instances less; simply a small house to house the electrical motor and pump and the gasoline engine which is used as an auxiliary drive.

Senator BREWSTER. Who would profit from such an arrangement? Captain KIBLER. The workmen are the only ones who profit from it, as far as I could judge.

Senator BREWSTER. We heard testimony this morning about the fees which were paid, some of them 5 percent. Have you heard of those?

Captain KIBLER. As far as I could judge, the carpenters were not guilty of such practice.

Senator BREWSTER. They were not? They simply paid for their working permits?

Captain KIBLER. That is right. They paid their initiation and their normal dues. But it appeared to me that it was a case of shoving the men on there rather than giving them a day off and letting them go home until they could be used elsewhere.

Senator BREWSTER. Did you report these things to your superior? Captain KIBLER. That was reported to him, but I took it up immediately with the contractor and tried to get the crew reduced, and it was reduced in a short time, but we can't catch all those instances.

The CHAIRMAN. You have got to have the cooperation of an honest contractor if you are going to run any job on the level. Isn't that true?

Captain KIBLER. It is his responsibility; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And he is in a fiduciary relationship with the Government when he takes a fixed-fee contract. He is just as much a Government employee as you are, isn't he?

Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FULTON. Did you make any inspection of projects where plumbers were being hired, where they were working?

Captain KIBLER. I have gone around and observed that they didn't seem to be working at their full capacity.

Mr. FULTON. This morning Mr. Loring testified that he was a plumber. I was wondering whether you made any observation concerning plumbers. Would you give specific cases that you are thinking of?

Captain KIBLER. The plumbing in a large number of lines was under a fixed-fee contract with two Memphis concerns, and they were handicapped at the beginning of the job by the fact that they didn't have sufficient materials and, in some cases, tools, but we were being driven in an attempt to meet certain completion dates, and it may have been that at the time I made the observation, the men were waiting to use certain machine tools in order to cut pipe. But I did observe at one time a large number of them standing around the shop

where they were cutting pipe, waiting, it appeared to me to be waiting, for the use of the equipment which was housed there.

Mr. FULTON. Was that a cost-plus subcontract?

Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FULTON. So that any of that time that was wasted would not be charged either to the contractor or to the subcontractor, but to the Government.

Captain KIBLER. That is right. It is the Government's pay roll. The CHAIRMAN. That is all, captain.

Captain KIBLER. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. John Lord; is John Lord in the room?

Mr. FULTON. Is Mr. Manier in the room?

Mr. MANIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FULTON. IS Mr. John Lord an employee of the Ferguson-Oman Co.?

Mr. MANIER. I will have to inquire. I don't know. He is an employee.

Mr. FULTON. Was he here this morning?

Mr. MANIER. Not that I know of, sir.

Mr. FULTON. Can he be here tomorrow morning?

Mr. MANIER. We can have him here if you wish. We have never been told that you wished to hear him. We will have him here tomorrow morning, but we have never been told that you wanted him. I had never heard his name until just now.

Mr. FULTON. None of the Army officers who were on their way has arrived yet, have they, Major Hill? None of the three has arrived yet?

Major HILL. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is Mr. Glatt here?

Mr. LORING. Mr. Chairman, here this morning I understood that Mr. Glatt was subpenaed. I tried to find him and called his office, and they tell me that they know nothing of any subpena here, and he is in Paris, Tenn., but he will be back in the city tonight.

The CHAIRMAN. Does Mr. Glatt want to be subpenaed? He was requested to appear before this committee. If he wants an official subpena, he will get it.

Mr. LORING. That I don't know, but he will be in the city tomorrow. The CHAIRMAN. We were simply extending him a courtesy to come here and state his side of the case. If he doesn't want to come and state his side of the case, we will subpena him and let him be crossexamined on the subject.

Mr. LORING. I called his home from his office, and they said he would be back in the city this evening, and I suppose he will be here in the morning.

The CHAIRMAN. We will extend him a further invitation to come in the morning.

Mr. FULTON. Did you ascertain, Mr. Loring, whether Mr. Glatt has any records?

Mr. LORING. As soon as I get in touch with him where I can talk to him, I am going to tell him to bring his records.

Mr. FULTON. My question related to whether he has any.

Mr. LORING. Whether he has any or not?

Mr. FULTON. Whether he has kept any records.

1 Maj. James P. Hill, War Department General Staff.

Mr. LORING. If you are asking me, I don't know what Mr. Glatt has done. Let Mr. Glatt speak for himself.

Mr. FULTON. What I wanted to make sure was that we want his records as well as himself.

Mr. LORING. Yes; just as soon as I can get in touch with him, as I have several long-distance calls out for him now to get him in here. Senator BREWSTER. This, as I understand it, is the contract you made?

Mr. LORING. That is the building-trades agreement between the unions and the contractors; yes, sir.

Senator BREWSTER. This is a copy which we may have for our files? Mr. LORING. Yes, sir; you may have that for your files.

The CHAIRMAN. We will make this an exhibit for the record.

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 155" and is on file with the committee.)

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. We are taking this recess because the Army's witnesses are not present, hoping they will be here tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 3:04 p. m., the committee recessed until 10 a. m., Tuesday, November 18, 1941.)

(Upon recess of the committee, Mr. Douglas I. McKay approached the committee bench and made comments resulting in certain inquiries by the committee which Mr. McKay refused to answer. Whereupon, the committee reconvened at 3: 10 p. m., Monday, November 17, 1941.) The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

You will be sworn. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the testimony you are about to give before this committee, so help you God?

Mr. MCKAY. I do.

TESTIMONY OF DOUGLAS I. MCKAY SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE CHIEF, CONSTRUCTION DIVISION, QUARTERMASTER CORPS, WAR DEPARTMENT

Mr. FULTON. What is your name?

Mr. McKAY. Douglas I. McKay.

Mr. FULTON. How do you spell it?

Mr. McKAY. D-o-u-g-l-a-s Î. McKay. M-c, capital K-a-y.

Mr. FULTON. By whom are you employed?

Mr. MCKAY. The War Department.

Mr. FULTON. What branch?

Mr. McKAY. Office of the Quartermaster General.

Mr. FULTON. In what part of his office?

Mr. MCKAY. Construction Division.

Mr. FULTON. Who is your immediate superior?

Mr. MCKAY. General Somervell.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he send you down here?

Mr. MCKAY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Why did he send you down here? We didn't sub

pena you.

Mr. MCKAY. That I do not know.