You have stated that you will get the figures of your Plumbers' Union and present them to us. Find out whether some of the other organizations, particularly the carpenters and the cement finishers, will be willing to do the same thing. I am not suggesting here that we shall summon them, because that is a matter that the committee will consider, but I think you will render a real service to labor if they show that disposition to cooperate.

The CHAIRMAN. And we will expect you back tomorrow with the information on that subject for the record.

Mr. LORING. All right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee has been hampered in its hearings this morning due to the fact that the Army has failed to get five of our most important witnesses here. In fact, some of these most important witnesses have been transferred off this project just as far away as they could possibly be sent. One, I understand, is in San Franciscó, and the other is in Portland, Oreg. For the benefit of those who are interested, the committee will go to the bottom of the whole situation if we have to bring the witnesses back from China.

We will now take a recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon, when we will hear Captain Kibler and then Mr. Glatt.

(Whereupon, at 12:10 p. m., the committee recessed until 2 p. m. of the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

The CHAIRMAN. Captain Kibler?

Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Captain, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in your testimony before this committee?

Captain KIBLER. I do.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. GEORGE N. KIBLER, QUARTERMASTER CORPS, LOUISIANA ORDNANCE PLANT, MINDEN, LA.

The CHAIRMAN. Captain, will you give the reporter your name and titles and your connections?

Captain KIBLER. Capt. George N. Kibler, Quartermaster Corps. I was assigned as executive officer of the Wolf Creek ordnance plant from approximately the last week in June until 4 weeks ago, when I was transferred to the Louisiana ordnance plant.

Senator BREWSTER. When was it you were transferred?

Captain KIBLER. I reported for duty at the Louisiana ordnance plant approximately 4 weeks ago today. That is down at Minden, La.

Senator BREWSTER. Had your previous experience been in the Army or in private life?

Captain KIBLER. I was civilian up to May 1, when I was called to the Army.

Senator BREWSTER. Nineteen forty-one?

Captain KIBLER. That is right, sir.

Senator BREWSTER. And what was your previous experience?

Captain KIBLER. Civil engineering; specifically, in fire-protection line and automatic sprinklers and things of similar caliber.

311932-42-pt. 9-4

ROAD CONSTRUCTION-CHERT CONTRACTS

The CHAIRMAN. Captain, you are familiar with road construction and the material purchased out there for the road, are you? Captain KIBLER. Well, certain phases; not all of it, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Beg pardon?

Captain KIBLER. Certain phases of it; not all of it.

The CHAIRMAN. I am particularly interested in the purchase of chert and how that purchase was handled.

Captain KIBLER. Well, I am not thoroughly familiar with the situation from the beginning, except from the records that existed at the time I became interested. On about July 5 one of the suppliers of chert, Cartwright Construction, came to me and asked me the reason why their purchase order had been canceled, and asked me to investigate. I started an investigation and discovered that they had received a contract on or about the 1st of April for the delivery of chert at $1.63 a yard. Subsequent to that time they had made deliveries, and on or about July 3, on the recommendation of the contractor, the acting C. Q. M. at that time issued a cancelation, and the Cartwright Construction Co. came in to see me as a result of that.

Having just been appointed executive officer at that time, I requested our purchasing officer, Lieutenant Bruce, to furnish me the facts in the case, and in the middle of the following week held discussion with the contractors, Mrs. Cartwright of the Cartwright Construction Co., determined the facts in the case, and, after discovering all the information that I could, I recommended to the constructing quartermaster, Major Hofto, who had just reported for duty as constructing quartermaster, that the purchase order be reinstated, and it was so done.

Senator BREWSTER. What was the difficulty? Why was the contract canceled in the first place?

Captain KIBLER. Going back to the beginning, as I discovered the facts from the record, the Cartwright Construction Co. bid on this job and was low approximately 37 cents a cubic yard, and started to make deliveries. Their plant was in such shape, which they so stated in their bid, that they would not be able to reach production for approximately 10 days. After 3 days' delivery the contractor requested of the C. Q. M., who was Major Brewer at that time, that the purchase order be canceled.

The CHAIRMAN. How many thousand yards were involved in this transaction?

Captain KIBLER. The original purchase order, I believe, was set up for approximately 150,000 cubic yards.

The CHAIRMAN. One hundred fifty thousand cubic yards?

Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir; if my arithmetic is right, that is somewhere in the neighborhood of a quarter of a million dollars. At the same time this recommendation was made, the second bidder, Memphis Stone & Gravel Co., was recommended to receive a purchase order covering a similar amount of material at $2 a yard.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a difference of 37 cents.
Captain KIBLER. Thirty-seven cents; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. A cubic yard. That would be about $50,000 on this 150,000-yard purchase.

Captain KIBLER. That is approximately correct.

Senator BREWSTER. You say that was recommended at the same time the other contract was recommended?

Captain KIBLER. No. It was recommended that they receive a purchase order at the same time that the contractor recommended that the original purchase order to the Cartwright Construction Co. be canceled.

The CHAIRMAN. At a higher rate.
Captain KIBLER. How is that?

The CHAIRMAN. At a higher rate.

Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir. Instead of its being canceled, they were given a 30-day grace period in which to get their equipment in such order that they could meet the minimum required deliveries; namely, 2,000 yards in a 16-hour day. On about the first week in May, they began deliveries again, and made deliveries. The exact number of hours delivered I don't know, because the delivery was supposed to be over a 16-hour day. The contractor contended in his request to the acting constructing quartermaster that the material was not meeting specification and that the concern could not deliver the required number of yardage.

One angle that was investigated was whether or not the Cartwright. Construction at the time I entered the picture was capable of delivering that amount of material. One of the other Army officers and myself made a visit to the quarry and their plant and after observation, felt that under average conditions they could meet the 2,000 yards in a 16-hour day, and that was incorporated within our recommendation to the constructing quartermaster.

The CHAIRMAN. Did they cancel the contract?
Captain KIBLER. We reinstated the contract.
The CHAIRMAN. You reinstated the contract?
Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir.

Senator BREWSTER. What did you find as to the question of quality? Captain KIBLER. The quality, according to the records of the testing laboratory up until approximately the middle of May, showed that they were varying and not meeting the specifications exactly. On approximately the middle of May the chief inspector for the architect-engineer recommended to the Cartwright Construction Co. that they employ an inspector who, by the way, was employed from the same concern who was testing the material at the plant-the same testing laboratory. From then one we have a conflict of information. The inspector at the plant informed the Cartwright Construction Co. that the material in every respect was meeting specifications at the plant. In certain instances the report came from the same laboratory that they were not meeting specification. But from the middle of May up until the time the cancelation was made there was reasonable meeting of specifications. In fact, both vendors were having about the same number of tests which were not in accord with specifications.

Senator BREWSTER. When you say "both vendors," what do you mean?

Captain KIBLER. The Memphis Stone & Gravel were also delivering at the same time.

Senator BREWSTER. And there was about the same degree of meeting specifications?

Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir; on the volume being delivered.

Senator BREWSTER. What was their price?

Captain KIBLER. Their price was $2 a cubic yard.

Senator BREWSTER. Is that the one you spoke of? That is another concern, isn't it?

Captain KIBLER. There are two concerns, Senator: First, the Cartwright Construction Co., at $1.63 a yard, which was the low bidder; and the other concern the Memphis Stone & Gravel, which is delivering at $2 a cubic yard.

Senator BREWSTER. Those were both operating at the same time?
Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir; they were both-

Senator BREWSTER. And when the recommendation for cancelation was made they also recommended that they expand the order to the Memphis?

Captain KIBLER. No; it wasn't necessary because both purchase orders were written for the total expected yardage needed.

Senator BREWSTER. So all you needed to do was to notify them that you wanted 200,000 more, or whatever the yardage was.

Captain KIBLER. Yes. The purchase order was set up on a more-orless basis.

Now, my observations led me to believe that there had been a certain amount of interference with the deliveries of the Cartwright Construction Co. We obtained affidavits from certain drivers for the company that they had been informed by members of the contractor's field forces that they were not hauling for the proper parties, and if they hauled for the Cartwright Construction Co. their loads would be rejected. They were also met on the roads by certain individuals who were interested in the Memphis concern and told that they should come over and haul for the right party, the party who had the inside job. There are affidavits on record to that effect from these drivers.

The CHAIRMAN. And that inside was 37 cents a yard more than the people on the outside were getting. Is that true?

Captain KIBLER. That is the way it appeared to me; yes, sir.

Mr. FULTON. Some of those drivers had their trucks purchased under terms of conditional sales, so that they still owed money on them?

Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir. That is what we were informed, that certain truck drivers had purchased equipment from an automotive dealer in a neighboring town up there.

Mr. FULTON. Huntingdon?

Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FULTON. What is the name of the dealer?
Captain KIBLER. The Priest-

Mr. FULTON. Marshall Priest?

Captain KIBLER. Marshall Priest; ves. I was informed-I have never been able to verify this-it is hearsay-that he, as a portion of the contract, insisted that they haul from the Memphis Stone & Gravel, which, I was also informed, he had an interest in.

Mr. FULTON. Did you ever have any discussion with Mr. John Lord who, I understand, was engaged or about to be engaged to marry into this Priest family?

Captain KIBLER. Yes.

Mr. FULTON. What was that conversation?

Captain KIBLER. This conversation took place later, after approximately a month had elapsed, when we had readvertised for bids for

surfacing material, gravel, slag, and chert, to be used in the Milan. ordnance depot, which is a different procurement authority, and I was informed that under the bids which had been turned in by the Memphis Stone, namely $1.75 to meet specifications, $1.55 to be what they termed pit run, the materials delivered would be identical in both cases, and that

Mr. FULTON (interposing). That was Mr. Lord who told you that, was it?

Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir; he told me that.

Mr. FULTON. Did he say anything more than that?

Captain KIBLER. He told me that he had been informed by a party whom he considered reliable that the difference in cost represented a portion of a kick-back which had been made.

The CHAIRMAN. To whom was this kick-back made?

Captain KIBLER. I have never been able to discover that, sir.
Mr. FULTON. Was Mr. Lord a Government employee?

Captain KIBLER. No, sir. As far as I know he is still on the contractor's staff project.

Mr. FULTON. He was employed by the contractor in this project?
Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. But he was paid by the Government?

Captain KIBLER. Yes, sir. All of the contractor's employees, except a very few, are.

Mr. FULTON. Did you put any inspectors of your own on the project to determine whether the chert was proper?

Captain KIBLER. There was a period of time after we reinstated the Cartwright Construction Co. when we put a stop order on deliveries by the Memphis Stone, and we had a little difficulty for approximately a week or 10 days. Then we began to get a large number of rejects, sometimes more than 50 loads per day, which in yardage represents something better than 300 cubic yards. And by visual examination and so on, we discovered very little difference between the material accepted and rejected. In order to find out whether the material actually was not meeting specifications, I visited the plant early one morning and took the specimens which the testing laboratory employed by the contractor had taken from the trucks which had been rejected. I took them to another testing laboratory in Nashville, who informed me that the material was meeting specification, well within specification. After that, we were enabled to expand our own materials inspecting department, or receiving department, and were enabled to put men out there who knew materials and were enabled by that means to cut down a large number of the rejections..

Mr. FULTON. You mean the contractor had his inspectors, and then you put up a duplicate series of inspectors on behalf of the quarter

master?

Captain KIBLER. We have a number of inspectors there who simply spot check to see whether everything is being conducted in accord with proper procedure and to protect the Government and the constructing quartermaster, to see that the contractor is following out his instructions.

Senator BREWSTER. Who was employing the inspection laboratory that made the first test?

Captain KIBLER. I didn't understand your question.