The CHAIRMAN. This particular district had not been authorized at that particular time? [Laughter.]

I read about the Pueblo Indians out there.

Mr. BALL. The statement has been made before the committee that this is a new project. I would like to impress upon them that it is not a new irrigation project. It is new only as far as the Government is concerned. We are very proud of our project and the way it has operated in the past. However, it is deteriorating due to natural causes beyond our control and rehabilitation will require financial outlay which the local citizens are unable to furnish. We have 121,000 acres of land in our district. It is approximately 155 miles in length along the main stream of the Rio Grande. The extreme length of river channel to be patrolled has resulted in a serious financial condition in the district in its continuous fight to control floods.

The deposition of large quantities of silt in the river channel has become so serious that we are continuously faced with threatened floods in that area. There have been a number of floods within recent years which have destroyed entire towns. They have damaged our lands out there and will continue to do damage to what we think is a very important part of the United States, especially New Mexico. The people of that valley have spent over $15,000,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Have these figures been given to us correctly in that matter as the amount that has been spent, the amount paid, and the amounts you owe?

Mr. BALL. Approximately. We owe $7,700,000.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we understand that.

Mr. BALL. The local people and the Government, through appropriations by previous Congresses, have spent a total of over $15,000,000.

The CHAIRMAN. What have the previous Congresses spent out there and where?

Mr. BALL. They appropriated considerable sums of money, Mr. Chairman, to take care of the portion of the project costs borne by the Indian Service, the expenses incurred in construction on the Indian lands.

The CHAIRMAN. About how much would you say?

Mr. BALL. They spent over $2,000,000 on this plan.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the only Federal money that has been put into this reclamation project?

Mr. BALL. That is right. We borrowed $5,585,000 from the RFC. We refunded our bonds and paid them off.

The CHAIRMAN. Are they in default?

Mr. BALL. No, sir; we are current. The Government charged us 4 percent. We were able to sell them at 2.69 percent.

The CHAIRMAN. You New Mexicans are always good traders. Go ahead.

Mr. BALL. We are faced with increasing maintenance costs due to aggradation of the river bed. It is becoming so serious that unless we get help we can begin to see the end of our district out there. The river bed channel is rising so rapidly that our drainage system is beginning to fail to function. The silt load carried by the river has increased to where we are continuously engaged in dredging operations.

The CHAIRMAN. You agree generally with Colonel Gee's statement of your estimates of your present status out there?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything else?

Mr. BALL. I think other witnesses will tell you of the increase in population in our area due to Government projects which are important to national defense. It is very important that transportation for such projects be maintained.

Another thing I would like to stress is that we do not intend to add any acreage to our project or increase the surplus production of food products within the United States through the help that we get through the Federal Government.

The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have had your statement.

Mr. BALL. If there are any questions, I would be glad to answer

them.

Mr. ANGELL. I would like to ask the witness: What type of agricultural products are produced in the area?

Mr. BALL. Principally alfalfa and subsistence-type crops are the prevailing agricultural industry in our district. The alfalfa crop and some orchard crops, which are consumed 100 percent locally.

Mr. ANGELL. Are there citrus fruits?

Mr. BALL. No citrus fruits whatever. The altitude at Albuquerque is approximately 5,000 feet.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much; you have been very helpful to us in giving us your further description of this project.

Now the next witness that has some other matter that he wants to emphasize, keeping in mind that Congress has approved this project. Colonel HARRISON. The next witness, sir, is Mr. John Bliss, State engineer and secretary of the Interstate Stream Commission of New Mexico.

STATEMENT OF JOHN BLISS, STATE ENGINEER, NEW MEXICO; SECRETARY, INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION, NEW MEXICO

The CHAIRMAN. What point of this matter, Mr. Bliss, is it you want to bring to our attention that would justify an increased authorization or removal of the ceiling?

Mr. BLISS. Mr. Chairman, as State engineer, I am the commissioner for New Mexico on the Rio Grande compact between the States of Colorado, New Mexico, and Texas. It is that phase of the matter that I want to bring to your attention.

The Rio Grande compact divides the waters of the Rio Grande between the States of Colorado, New Mexico, and Texas on an equitable basis, according to certain delivery schedules which Colonel Harrison described to you earlier in the hearings.

New Mexico, at the present time, due to conditions in the middle valley, which conditions have been described to you, is not making her deliveries under the compact. She is failing to deliver the water through the Middle Rio Grande called for by that agreement. Last year, our debit under the compact was 176,000 acre-feet. This year our debit is almost 290,000 acre-feet.

The CHAIRMAN. What you are emphasizing, without meaning to interrupt you in any way, is that Colonel Gee is correct in his state

ment that your stream has been filled and it is necessary to excavate; is it not?

Mr. BLISS. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. That will enable you, among other things, to carry out your compact and incidentally provide benefits or rather better means for producing crops out there.

Mr. BLISS. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well; you are looking after your agreements. Mr. BLISS. The maximum debit which the State can incur is 400,000 acre-feet; so you can see by very simple calculation that in about 2 years we are going to be completely bankrupt as far as water supply in the Middle Valley is concerned. I think as much as anything that emphasizes the extreme urgency of our situation.

The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have had your statement.

Mr. ANGELL. Mr. Bliss, how much a year are you obligated to produce?

Mr. BLISS. It is on a sliding scale, Congressman. It is a schedule based upon the inflow at the upper end of the valley and required outflow at the lower end of the valley.

Mr. ANGELL. What percentage of the total output must you deliver? Mr. BLISS. It is a varying amount; but the maximum which we can acquire, as I say, is about 400,000 under the compact. We have already acquired some 300,000.

Mr. ANGELL. What happens when you reach your maximum?

Mr. BLISS. Presumably the only way in which we could then attempt to make our deliveries would be to actually take land out of cultivation and irrigation, land which has been in cultivation for hundreds of years. We could attempt to make deliveries by this method, but I do not believe that it would accomplish the object.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions by members of the committee, either on my right or on my left?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would like to know how you people got along down there before the Elephant Butte Dam was built?

Mr. BLISS. We did very well until about 1915 when Elephant Butte Dam was built. One result of the construction of that reservoir was to change the gradient of the river so that the channel above the reservoir started to fill with silt, aggrading rapidly, and that of course has resulted in our present situation.

At the time the Middle Rio Grande conservancy district was initiated in the late twenties, and the project was completed about 1934 or 1935, we did very well in the Middle Valley as far as consumption of water is concerned. We met our compact obligations and our experience gained at that time proves that when the valley is rehabilitated and the drains are made effective again, when the valley is put back on a firm economic basis, we can again more than meet our obligations. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions, Mr. Cunningham? Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have no further questions.

Mr. FORD. What right of recourse does Texas have under the compact if you were unable to supply them the required amount?

Mr. BLISS. If we cannot supply them their water under the compact, they presumably have recourse in the Supreme Court.

Mr. FORD. For monetary damages?

Mr. BLISS. Presumably; if they can collect them. What, in effect, we may have at the present time is an unenforceable contract. The State of New Mexico is doing everything it can at the present time to comply with the compact. Our noncompliance is not due to man-made causes; it is due to the natural losses on the stream which are getting worse every year. That is the situation we have to correct.

The CHAIRMAN. You still continue to have arguments out there. My general impression is that you have a good many going on now, as Mr. Ford indicates in his question about the disposition of water and the satisfactory disposition as far as those States are concerned, including California, New Mexico.

Thank you very much, sir.

Now another witness that wants to emphasize another phase of this matter.

Colonel HARRISON. Mr. Chairman, we felt you would like to hear from Mr. Wathen, chief engineer, Indian service, regarding the situation on the Indian lands. Of course, the Indians were the original inhabitants of the valley.

The CHAIRMAN. With respect to the Indians or to Indian lands, Congress has appropriated $2,000,000 as I understand to make up the deficits that they have been unable to pay out there.

Is there any other feature you want to bring to our attention? Mr. WATHEN. Not necessarily, Mr. Chairman. The Bureau of Indian Affairs is vitally interested both in the flood-control features and the rehabilitation program of the Corps of Engineers and the Bureau of Reclamation.

The CHAIRMAN. How would it affect the Indian lands particularly? Mr. WATHEN. We have recognized for years the flood danger in the Middle Rio Grande and we have even this year spent approximately $100,000 to protect government property and Indian lands.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by Government property? Mr. WATHEN. Irrigation works constructed by the Indian service for Indian lands.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. WATHEN. We participated in the field studies made by the Corps of Engineers and the Bureau of Reclamation from which studies those two reports were developed. We fully support the two reports. That is about all we want to say. We merely want to bring to the attention of the committee that the Bureau of Indian Affairs is vitally interested in the program and fully supports it.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Next witness, please.

Colonel HARRISON. Mr. Chairman, I believe you would be interested in hearing from a witness here who can actually tell you something of the situation of a small farmer in the Rio Grande Valley. I would like to call Mr. H. O. Bursum who is mayor of Socorro and president of the First National Bank.

STATEMENT OF H. O. BURSUM, MAYOR OF SOCORRO, PRESIDENT OF THE FIRST NATIONAL BANK, SOCORRO, N. MEX.

Mr. BURSUM. Mr. Chairman, as mayor of Socorro, I would like to emphasize one point, that the New Mexico School of Mines is located

92329-49-23

there. Dr. Workman who is its president is performing some very important work for national defense. The School of Mines is at present under contract with the Navy Department. The city of Socorro, a good portion of it, is lower than the bed of the river.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is that located with respect to

Mr. BURSUM. That is 75 miles south of Albuquerque.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, sir. You emphasize the hazard to that school in your statement. Go right ahead; I did not mean to interrupt

you.

Mr. BURSUM. I meant to bring that out that it is important. He is the gentleman who developed variable timing for fuses which helped win the war. He is president of the school and now doing contract work for the Navy at Socorro, N. Mex.

Also, the White Sands Proving Ground is immediately south of Socorro. We are right in the middle of a large portion of the experimental work done by the Army, Navy, and the Air Forces.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't want any secrets disclosed. Does atomic energy have their work out there?

These are not secrets.

Mr. BURSUM. They are in there, too. The grounds for rocket experiment work are there, too. As a matter of fact, one fell just east of Socorro there with a big thud.

My next point: As a country banker, these farmers have no credit: they cannot borrow any money on their land due to the constant flood danger. It is not a matter of whether there will be a flood. It is a matter of when the next flood comes. There is no protection. We always have constant floodings there. That is why we are so vitally interested in this project. Those farmers cannot borrow a dime on their land. They spend their cash and they are out of luck.

The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have your statement.

Are there any questions by any member either on my right or on my left?

Next witness, please, Colonel.

Colonel HARRISON. Mr. Chairman, the next witness is one whose forefathers were in that land before the Mayflower arrived here from, I believe it was, Plymouth, England.

The CHAIRMAN. We can get to the Mayflower later; for now, let us return to New Mexico, with respect to this [laughter].

STATEMENT OF H. APODACA, MAYOR OF BERNALILLO, N. MEX.

Mr. APODACA. Mr. Chairman, I am not a banker. I am not a small farmer. Couldn't be either one of them.

We are faced with the same menace that Mr. Bursum is. Our town is 100 miles north from their city; about 20 miles north of Albuquerque. Bernalillo also happens to be a foot lower than the river.

I am sure that farmers and businessmen in Bernalillo are very very interested in the flood project that is now before this committee.

I am sure that farmers and businessmen there are faced with that same menace Mr. Bursum mentioned a few minutes ago.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, sir, very much. Where is that town located with respect to Bernalillo-where is Bernalillo with respect to Albuquerque, on that map?

On the river, is it?

Mr. APODACA. Yes, sir.