Improving Legal Representation for Older Americans

sort of thing. Money must be available for them, and, of course, we recommend that very highly, too.

Thank you.

Senator TUNNEY. Are you suggesting that we would have legal services made available to senior citizens as part of a package of services that are available to community centers? If so, do you think that could be done under the Older Americans Assistance Act or some other funding mechanism, or do you think we should look toward providing legal services separately as a service which would have separate funding, or some combination of both?

Mr. ELLSWORTH. I think probably a combination of both. The thing that I feel would work best would be to have paralegal services available, for example, in Los Angeles in each of the five supervisorial districts, and it may be there are only four set up at the present time. There the service centers provide service and înformation on all of the county departments, probation, welfare, aging, veterans, and the rest of them. If that could be expanded to include the legal, I think that is the best way to do it there. And, of course, I think we have to have Federal funding.

As far as the paralegal services go in Los Angeles County, we did train at the County Committee on Aging, along with the Center for Law and Poverty, some 50 people. My understanding is that the program is almost ineffective because the income limit, as I understand it, is set at $187.50 per month, which excludes anybody who has enough money to pay for legal services.

Mr. FORST. I might add to that, Senator, that the Social Security payments are more than that right now, as an average. Šenator TUNNEY. That's right.

Thank you very much, gentlemen. We really appreciate your being with us. Yours has been very valuable testimony to the committee.

Our next witnesses, a panel of government officials, Mrs. Carnella Barnes and Mr. Matt Woods. Mrs. Carnella Barnes is assistant director, Department of Senior Citizens Affairs, Los Angeles County. Mr. Woods is District Director, Social Security Administration, downtown Los Angeles office.

Mrs. Barnes, do you want to proceed?

STATEMENT OF CARNELLA BARNES, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF SENIOR CITIZENS AFFAIRS, LOS ANGELES COUNTY

Mrs. BARNES. Senator Tunney, members of the U.S. Senate Special Committee on Aging, Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am here today representing the county of Los Angeles, Department of Senior Citizens Affairs, in the capacity of assistant director. We are pleased to be asked to speak in behalf of the elderly today, explaining their needs in the area of legal services. We are aware of your deep concern and commitment to the dignity and worth of the aging population, which you have demonstrated by hearings that you have conducted in preparation for meaningful legislation.

I would like to reiterate further some of the legal barriers to older persons receiving legal services in the county of Los Angeles.

The first major barrier is knowledge of a legal resource which is

sympathetic to their problems, a professional service which has the time to listen and to help unravel the problems of an older person who no longer remembers the details nor remembers where the records are, if they are still available.

The cost of legal services is well beyond the income capability of most aged persons in Los Angeles County, 15 percent of whom live below the federally defined poverty level, and an additional 14 percent of whom have an income just above the poverty level.

I would like to move to the question of how title III of the Older Americans Act might be used to provide legal services. You are familiar with Title 45, Chapter IX, Administration on Aging, Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, Section 903.66 b.11, which states, and I quote:

Where necessary and feasible, enter into arrangements, consistent with the provisions of the area plan, under which funds under this title may be used to provide legal services to older persons in the planning and service area, carried out through federally assisted programs or other public or nonprofit agencies.

We recommend that this fund be made available to coordinate existing legal resources, thereby drawing together into a corporate unit those legal services designated to serve the elderly. This would involve legal, paralegal, professional counseling for the elderly, information and referral, as well as as nonlegal personnel.

Also to locate specialized areas, such as the National Senior Citizens Law Center or any other public or private agencies available to render service.

Further, to coordinate existing legal resources such as Legal Aid, Public Administrator, Public Guardian, District Attorney's office, and others.

Also by use of the rich resources of retired attorneys, who could serve as counselors and provide us our referral services, who, because of their years of rich experience and additional time available, could on a part-time bases be located in the community at strategic meeting places of older people, such places as countywide service centers, senior citizen centers, nutrition sites, information and referral offices, churches and synagogues out in the community where the services would be accessible to the aging.

Since there is a Federal program which supports medical needs called Medicare, why not develop a service to meet legal needs called "legal care"?

LEGAL INSURANCE FOR POOR ELDERLY

For those seniors below the poverty level and those just above poverty, an adequate form of legal insurance provided on a basis of right would assure the older persons that their rights are protected. The real need, ladies and gentlemen, consists of funds to pay for costs of legal services in the court process or other processes requiring the payment of costs. Under title III there could be developed a program to coordinate the services of all legal resources. These services should be located within the reach of older persons, but the problem remains-who will pay the bill when the case has to be litigated?

We recommend that a pilot project in the form of a special unit be created using public and private agencies and funded with sufficient resources to cover all costs, and that this program be developed in this community possibly as a demonstration project to meet the increasing legal needs of the elderly.

It has been well pointed out that elderly persons do have problems in dealing with the bureaucracy. They experience long waiting periods, they experience encountering a complex maze in problem solving where income, housing, health, socialization and other problems exist. Consider now the frustration of going to so many agencies seeking services. This is where title V under the Older Americans Act, the multipurpose centers with centralized services, would help to provide a one-stop service for all their needs.

Today's seniors are not the lawbreakers. They are not the activists or the new trend of persons who are able to demand their rights. Today's seniors, especially in minority and ethnic communities, due to language and cultural barriers in the urban megalopolis, are faced with a world where people do not for the most part help their neighbors or have concern for the aging.

In closing may we enumerate the following illustrations of the varied kinds of problems that confront older persons, as observed from the records of our volunteer attorney over the period of a few months, which could often be solved with the proper legal guidance and representation, such as the making of wills and codicils, credit problems, recovery of loans made, malpractice, faulty repair by mechanics, legal change of name, excessive public utility charges, appointing of legal guardian violation of welfare and health department regulations, various criminal violations, various traffic violations, insurance problems, probate of estate, improper medical service, negligence actions, divorce actions, action for nonsupport purchase and sale of real estate landlord and tenant disputes, property tax problems, eviction problems, rent increase problems, defective equipment in an apartment, union pension disputes, general pension disputes, employee-employer disputes, Social Security problems, theft of personal property.

Ladies and gentlemen, we thank you for this opportunity to speak briefly on behalf of older persons, many of whom are in need of legal services.

Senator TUNNEY. Thank you very much. That is an excellent statement, Mrs. Barnes. We really appreciate it.

[The prepared statement of Carnella J. Barnes follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF CARNELLA J. BARNES

Mr. Chairman, members of the United States Senate Special Committee on Aging, ladies and gentlemen. I am here today representing the County of Los Angeles Department of Senior Citizens Affairs, in the capacity of Assistant Director. However, before reading my statement, I would like to make some introductory remarks. We count it a distinct honor to be here today essentially in behalf of the elderly, who have helped to lay the foundation upon which we, today, are still building but many of whom in their later years are denied the full benefits of their labours. We were pleased to be asked to speak in behalf of the elderly today in explaining their needs, in the area of legal services. We are aware of your deep concern and commitment to the dignity and worth of the aging population, for you have demonstrated by the hearings, which you