ment which was prepared by the Budget and sent up to remove from our appropriation the restriction on the President's right to allocate from his general funds such additional funds as we might need. Our legislation was peculiar in having that restriction in it.

Senator MCKELLAR. May I not ask right there: You asked that that restriction be removed?

Mr. MELLETT. Yes, sir.

Senator MCKELLAR. And the Congress declined to do that. Now, these expenditures will be greater than that restrictional amount allowed, will they not?

Mr. MELLETT. No, they will be less.

Senator MCKELLAR. Well, you do not want that restriction removed then?

Mr. MELLETT. Yes, we do. That would suit our purpose completely.

Senator MCKELLAR. Yes, sir; but the Congress has differed with you on that, Mr. Mellett. I have been exceedingly friendly, and I feel that way about you yet, but you are disregarding the expressed will of the Congress in going ahead with this matter. Why could not you have waited until Congress authorized it? I am sure the President meant in his letter when Congress authorized the appropriations that you would go ahead. But why have you gone ahead without waiting for it to be authorized? It is before the Congress now. It is before our committee. The very question that you suggest, the limitation that you suggest, the amount of money that you need to furnish this building, it is all before the Committee on Appropriations at this time. I am wondering why you are proceeding against the expressed will of Congress in that regard.

Mr. MELLETT. Well, as I understand it, there has been no expression by Congress, or even by your committee, as to the propriety of our undertaking to do this work. There has been no expression of any kind. May I explain my understanding?

Senator MCKELLAR. Just a moment. They certainly expressed their decided will that that limitation not be removed, and as long as that is there I do not see how you can go ahead with your increased program. It seems to me you are just flagrantly disregarding the expressed wish of the Congress.

Mr. TABER. And of the law.

Senator MCKELLAR. Now, if you address yourself to that, we will be very much obliged.

Mr. MELLETT. Senator, action had been taken by the Public Buildings Administration and by the Park and Planning Commission

Senator MCKELLAR (interposing). They do not appropriate money for you, Mr. Mellett. Neither one of those commissions have the right to appropriate money for you. You have to come to the Congress. Under our Constitution and laws, Congress has the right to appropriate money for you, for an expansion of your department or activity, whatever it may be. Are you going to follow the Planning Commission rather than the Congress, or are you going to abide by the decision of the Congress? That is what I want to know. Mr. MELLETT. Now, may I proceed?

Senator MCKELLAR. Yes, sir.

Mr. MELLETT. We were given this undertaking by the President, being a branch of the Executive Office of the President. We first

discussed the feasibility of a building with the Public Buildings Administration, to see whether we could do it. That was inherent in the proposal. We also discussed a site with the Park and Planning Commission. Then, at our first opportunity we endeavored to present this proposal for lifting the restriction on the use of the President's funds to the House Committee on Appropriations, but the bill that it was possible to attach it to had already left the Appropriations Committee of the House. We waited until it came to the Appropriations Committee of the Senate. Now, it was our purpose, and I would say it is our purpose, to do this job that we were given to do. Now, to do it adequately, to do it as well as we can do it, we need some additional funds. We will do the best we can without the funds if necessary. We do not think we can do nearly an adequate job unless we do have some additional funds.

Senator MCKELLAR. In other words, as I understand you, whether the Congress approves or disapproves ofthis matter, you are going to do it anyway?

Mr. MELLETT. Senator, all we know about the Congress' approval or disapproval is we made this request for lifting the restriction on the use of funds.

Senator MCKELLAR. Which had been refused?

Mr. MELLETT. Well, we got no word of refusal. All we know it is was not attached to that bill. We got no report on it one way or the other, so we had no will of Congress to refuse, as far as we knew.

Mr. TABER. You knew it was the law, and you knew that they had not changed it. That is the only thing you really had before you— that you knew it was the law and you knew it had not been changed. Mr. WOODRUM. May I ask the gentleman a question?

Mr. MELLETT. Yes, Mr. Taber, but as I said, if it were not changed we have this job to do and we will do it as well as we can do it, as inadequately as we have to do it, if we do not get the slight amount of additional money that we are requesting here now.

Mr. WOODRUM. Mr. Mellett, so far as the building itself is concerned, the $600,000 for the building, Congress does not appropriate for your rent, or for any building you might have under way, that is gotten out of the $25,000,000 that Congress appropriated in a blanket sum for public buildings; is not that correct?

Mr. MELLETT. Yes.

Mr. WOODRUM. So that $600,000 does not come out of any funds that the Congress appropriates direct to you?

Mr. MELLETT. It comes out of the public buildings funds.

Mr. WOODRUM. It is the function of the Public Buildings Administration to provide you with office space for whatever size force you have?

Mr. MELLETT. Yes.

Mr. WOODRUM. But your funds for your expanded enterprises themselves come from two sources: (1) from the amount that Congress appropriated directly, and (2) from the amount that Congress permitted to be transferred to you from the President's emergency fund? Mr. MELLETT. That is true.

Mr. WOODRUM. During the current fiscal year, 1942, we appropriated directly for you a million-what?

Mr. MELLETT. $1,093,000.

Mr. WOODRUM. And we permitted you, under that limitation, to get $800,000 from the President's emergency fund?

Mr. MELLETT. At the request of the President, you listed that restriction to the extent of $800,000.

Mr. WOODRUM. We lifted the restriction to the extent of $800,000? Mr. MELLETT. Yes; instead of removing the restriction, you removed it up to $800,000 additional.

Mr. WOODRUM. Now, in order to carry out this expanded program, you requested the Senate committee to further lift that restriction during the current fiscal year?

Mr. MELLETT. Yes.

Mr. WOODRUM. There is no limitation contained in the bill as it passed the House on the transfer of the Presidential funds as to the next fiscal year beginning June 30?

Mr. MELLETT. That is true.

Mr. WOODRUM. I just wanted that chronological statement for the record.

Mr. MELLETT. We merely ask that the same action be taken for this fiscal year as taken by the House for next year.

Mr. WOODRUM. In your obligations, have you exceeded the amount of money which Congress appropriated to you for 1942, including the direct appropriation and the amount of allocation?

Mr. MELLETT. Have we exceeded it?

Mr. WOODRUM. Yes.

Mr. MELLETT. No; we have not.

Mr. TABER. Have there been a lot of transfers or loans to you of employees from other agencies?

Mr. MELLETT. No, sir.

Mr. TABER. Not any?

Mr. HAMBLET. Not over two, Congressman.

Mr. WOODRUM. Mr. Chairman, I think if we let Mr. Mellett finish without any of us interrupting, let him finish answering your questions, we will all get what we are looking for.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead, Mr. Mellett.

Mr. MELLETT. Your second question:

From what source will the funds be derived for this building?

The answer is:

The Public Buildings Administration will pay for the cost of construction of Temporary V from funds provided in the Third Supplemental National Defense Appropriation Act, 1942, approved December 17, 1941, Public 353, page 14. The act provides for the construction of general office buildings on Governmentowned land in the District of Columbia.

That is the same ground we went over.

The third question:

Will your additional expenditures be derived from appropriations, from executive allocation, or will Congress have an opportunity to pass on all appropriation for personnel and other expenses?

The answer is:

We must, of course, ask Congress for approval of any increase in our total expenditure. Additional funds can come only from congressional appropriation or a congressional authorization for further supplementation of our funds by Executive allocation. The Second Deficiency Act, 1941, appropriated to the Office of Government Reports $1,093,730. The appropriation contained the following provision:

"The appropriation herein made for the Office of Government Reports shall constitute the total amount to be available for obligation by such agency during the fiscal year 1942 and shall not be supplemented by funds from any source."

In December 1941 the President requested that the provision be rescinded. Public Law 371 amended the provision to read:

"The appropriations herein made for the Office of Government Reports shall not be supplemented by funds from any source aggregating in excess of $800,000 during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1942."

The President's request that the limitation be rescinded was to enable him to allocate such funds as might be necessary for the Office of Government Reports to carry out the additional wartime duties assigned to the office. At the time of the hearing, our estimate of requirements for the specific job then in hand was $800,000. Since then, additional demands have been made, including the expansion of the United States Information Service. It has therefore been requested that the amendment to the Second Deficiency Appropriation Act be amended to read as follows:

"The limitation on the total amount to be available for obligation by the Office of Government Reports during the fiscal year 1942 contained in the Second Deficiency Appropriation Act, 1941, as amended by the act of December 23, 1941 (Public Law 371), is hereby rescinded."

The request was presented to the Subcommittee of the Committee on Appropriations, United States Senate, for consideration in connection with the first deficiency appropriation bill for 1942. The bill had already passed the House, and the language was not inserted in the bill by the Senate committee. The request is still pending and we hope to have an opportunity for further hearings when the subcommittee of the House Appropriations Committee starts hearings on the next deficiency bill. We will, of course, present detailed estimates to the committee. The decision will then rest with the Congress as to whether the President's request for a revision of the language shall be granted or denied, or whether a direct appropriation should be made for this specific purpose.

That covers the same ground.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Mellett, if the President's request is granted, in lieu of a limitation, that would mean then a large part of your expenditures would not be passed upon by Congress?

Mr. MELLETT. That is true, if I am not mistaken, of this fund that was allocated to him.

The CHAIRMAN. At the present time, of the $1,800,000 that you spend Congress appropriates about $1,093,000?

Mr. MELLET. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. So at the present time, Congress has control of about one-half of your expenditures, or a little more?

Mr. MELLETT. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. If this limitation is removed at the request of the President, it would mean that Congress would have less control of your expenditures than it has now?

Mr. MELLETT. That is mathematically true; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The President, I suppose, would substantially increase the allocation to your agency from the lump sum appropriation which he has, if his request is granted?

Mr. MELLETT: Yes; to the extent approved by the Bureau of the Budget our current request is $112,000.

The CHAIRMAN. So your answer to that question will have to be, it seems to me, that Congress would certainly not control, if the President's request is granted, would certainly not control more than 50 percent of your expenses, and less than 50 percent if the request. is granted?

Mr. MELLETT. That would follow; yes, sir. Our appropriation for the next fiscal year as passed by the House is $1,500,000.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the objection that the President has, or you have, or whoever has, to coming to Congress, like all other departments do and giving an estimate of your costs and letting Congress pass upon it?

Mr. MELLETT. I do not know that we have any objection, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. Why do you ask, then, for the removal of this limitation?

Mr. MELLETT. His funds are not restricted as to other operations. that he carries on.

Mr. WOODRUM. In other words, you want the money if you can. get it from direct appropriation, and if you cannot get it there you want to get it from somewhere else?

Mr. MELLETT. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you prefer to get it from the direct allocation by the President, rather than coming to Congress?

Mr. MELLETT. Frankly, either way would be quite acceptable. The CHAIRMAN. Just so you get it?

Mr. MELLETT. That is right.

Mr. TABER. Take it both ways, a little of each.

The CHAIRMAN. Assuming that Congress does not repeal this limitation, what will be the effect then on the equipping of this new building? If Congress refuses to appropriate the money to equip it, what will be the effect of that?

Mr. MELLETT. We will have to equip it the best way we can, with such inadequate furniture as we have.

The CHAIRMAN. You are spending now the total amount that the President allocated to you. That is being spent in your operating expenses, is it not?

Mr. MELLETT. Yes, I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. Unless Congress appropriates the money to equip it, you haven't the money to equip the building?

Mr. MELLETT. Beg pardon?

The CHAIRMAN. Unless Congress appropriates the money to equip the building, the President could not allocate funds to equip it in excess of this limitation?

Mr. MELLETT. That is right.

We can squeeze some of it out of our current appropriation by stopping other activities, of course.

The CHAIRMAN. The situation you have is that you are building a building that Congress has not approved, but the equipment has to come from Congress; if this limitation is continued the equipment must come from congressional appropriation?

Mr. MELLETT. Or the curtailment of our other operations, out of the money we already have.

The CHAIRMAN. The same thing would apply to your increased personnel?

Mr. MELLETT. That is true.

Senator McKELLAR. I Would like to know how much that is. If you haven't gotten to that yet, we will wait until you get to it. Mr. MELLETT. The fourth question:

The number of persons this building will accommodate.

The answer is:

It is estimated that there will be a total of 341 employees in the new building. The CHAIRMAN. At that point, the average space is 100 square feet, is it not? I mean the average amount of space required by the Government employees in Washington would be 100 square feet, and it would accommodate, as I recall it, 700 employees.