I will whisper to Mr. Rooney that I come from New York. May I just give you the high lights of a few statistics on that Our attorneys come from 42 States, including in addition, the Distric of Columbia, Alaska, and the Philippine Islands. The first 10 State in our representation-it does start off with New York, that is th most populous, but then we go to California, second; third, Oklahoma fourth, Colorado; fifth, Pennsylvania; sixth, Virginia; seventh, th District; eighth, Illinois; ninth, Iowa; tenth, Maryland; eleventh Oregon.

That is not because I am a virtuous man, it is because our interest lie in the West, and we have made a more determined effort to ge western lawyers than most of the departments.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Well, as far as Oklahoma is concerned it is because you almost have to go to Oklahoma to get lawyers wh are familiar with Oklahoma land title. A lawyer from New Yor would not know anything about Indian land titles.

Mr. GARDNER. My Indian section has pointed out to me that man from New York cannot learn that business.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. I am glad you agree with me again Mr. GARDNER. I am very ready to agree with you, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. All right. Fine.

Mr. GARDNER. The law-school representation I think is ever broader. Our largest group, some 53 lawyers, did not go to law school.

There are 64 law schools represented, the largest group being the District law schools, people who have gone to school while working for the Government.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. A man does not have to go to law school to be a lawyer. My own experience in law school taught m that a man goes to law school only to learn how to study; any man who can study under a good lawyer is often better off than some fellow who goes to law school and gets some legalistic theory from some law professor who never actually practiced law.

Mr. GARDNER. I think a man may be better off.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. I think it depends on the material h has to work with. A professor in law school never could make a rea lawyer out of a man who does not at least have some legal ability. Mr. GARDNER. I agree with you.

Our largest group, only 12 attorneys, come from Columbia, whici is my own law school, but I think I appointed none of them.

Our next largest group comes from the University of Iowa. I thinl there are six.

After Iowa comes California, the University of California, also with six attorneys represented.

Then the University of Colorado, five attorneys represented; Okla homa five.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. I thought you had Oklahoma third. Mr. GARDNER. States, not law schools. I think in your State they must follow your recommendation, studying under a lawyer rathe than going to a law school.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Or coming to the District of Columbi and going to school here perhaps.

Mr. GARDNER. Yes. And that is a great advantage of Federa service, for a man who cannot afford law school. I had the sam

experience, of working my way through law school for 3 years, which almost killed me.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Well, I have brought forty-odd young men to Washington, most of whom attended law school, and I got them jobs here where they worked part time, sometimes as policemen, elevator operators, oftentimes I gave them jobs in my office where sometimes I did not need help.

And I had a young man who came here to take a job in my office topaduated with distinction at George Washington University, and served in the Interior Department, by the way, without my recommendation. They probably did not know that he was my friend when they hired him.

Later on he got a job with a private concern which he held down for a few years, then the war came on and he served overseas for 2 or 3 years, came back to Washington last week and was offered three jobs, the last of which offered him $6,600, which he turned down, and he has just accepted an excellent legal position with a private concern. So I get a real kick out of helping these boys get started.

I feel that one of the greatest things I can do for a young fellow who comes to Washington and who wants to be a lawyer is to help him help himself.

Mr. GARDNER. Yes. It is a hard way to learn the law, holding down two jobs, but a man may appreciate it the more.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. I had to do the same thing when I went to the law school at the University of Oklahoma more than a quarter of a century ago.

Mr. Dworshak?

Mr. DWORSHAK. I have no questions.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Go ahead.

NEED FOR AN ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT

Mr. GARDNER. I ask for one other position and that is because of a most perilous situation I am in with respect to Miss Mahon. I think she is the most indispensable one in my office.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. She is the good-looking lady sitting at your left?

Mr. GARDNER. Yes. The Solicitor can go away, the Assistant Solicitor can go away, and the office can get along. If Miss Mahon has a cold we are in a mess.

When I was first here she was responsible for the personnel and administrative side of my comparatively small office.

We have now expanded her duties so that she follows the personnel for the entire Department. We now have centralized records where we can pull out all we want to know about any attorney in the Department.

Mr. ROONEY. Are you asking for a raise for her?

Mr. GARDNER. No; I have asked for a raise for her about every 6 months.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. What is your salary?

Miss MAHON. $4,520.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Are you a lawyer?

Miss MAHON. Graduate of a law school.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Since 1942?

Miss MAHON. 1932.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. All right, go ahead.

Mr. GARDNER. As I say, I have to persuade the Civil Service Com mission first, which I and all my predecessors have been working on We occasionally make a little progress.

But what I am asking here is an assistant to her.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. It is not an increase for her?

Mr. GARDNER. No. An assistant at CAF-7. What is it-$2,9801 Because I think it is a very dangerous situation for an office to be in where it cannot run without one person, and that is our situation

now.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. What did you start in at, Miss Mahon You did not have $2,900 to start with, did you?

Miss MAHON. No, sir. I started way down.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. How much?

Miss MAHON. I think it was $1,620.

Mr. GARDNER. Somebody was certainly getting a bargain in those days.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Well, no doubt that is true.

Mr. GARDNER. This is not a stenographer I am asking for, it is an administrative assistant. I do not know whether it will be a girl or a man. Miss Mahon has to keep up with budget matters and serve as liaison on personnel matters with all attorneys in the Department which goes into geometrical proportions when you start to dealing with some other office, some how she does it, in a manner unknown to And she should have an executive assistant so if she should be away with a cold the office would not collapse.

me.

And that is all we are asking for.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Well, first on your priority is what? We never give you all you ask for. Would you like to say on your priority list what you need most, either on or off the record?

Mr. GARDNER. It makes no difference to me whether it is on or off. I need all of these positions desperately, which is what I would say in any event and which happens to be the case.

I think perhaps the P-6 attorney in the Legislative Division is the most pressing need; after that, Miss Mahon's assistant; after that, the P-1 attorneys and the stenographers. The P-1 attorneys we need now, but the thing I am most worrying about is the future.

But if you turn me down now I would still have hopes I could come back next year on the P-1 attorneys or the stenographers. May I ask that you do not view my P-1 as a lump-sum request; and if I must do with less, cut an attorney or a stenographer off.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. But if we do not do it, you will go to the Senate and ask them to do so.

Mr. GARDNER. I have only been before you one time before. That time you cut me, and I felt I could get along. But I most certainly would ask for Senate help on Miss Mahon's assistant and the P-6 attorney.

On the other hand, I perhaps would be content with slightly less than the 3 P-1 attorneys, but I do have to start getting some young attorneys, or in the future we will be ir a mess, and this is the only way I have to do it.

That is all I have.

WORK OF THE OFFICE

Mr. JENSEN. You say you have this backlog of things that have piled up on you since you have been away?

Mr. GARDNER. It was there when I left. I do not wish to blame my predecessor.

Mr. JENSEN. I think it would be of value to the committee to know what kind of matters and problems are involved in relation to the letters that have not been answered and the things that you have to do that you are falling behind on now.

Mr. GARDNER. I think, at least since I have been here, I have probably been more of a nuisance to my attorneys than my predecessor in getting the letters answered, because I am making the boys get the things out of the way that we can get out of the way and save the larger problems.

Mr. JENSEN. Are they requests for interpretation of the law, primarily?

Mr. GARDNER. Can I read you the first two items of each onewould that be a fair sample? Or could I put this in the record? It is a pretty lengthy thing. For the Legislative Division list 28 items, the twenty-eighth being miscellaneous review work, which includes a lot of little things.

But there is one revision of the mining and mineral laws. It is pretty well out of date.

Second, a much less ambitious extension of the mineral laws to acquired lands.

Minerals are leased on acquired lands under various methods which are not too satisfactory.

Then consideration of a very old problem, payments in lieu of taxes to States and counties. The Department has long been concerned, as States and counties are, and we would like to work out some way in which needed Federal projects could go ahead and at the same time do the right thing for the taxed land which is affected. Mr. JENSEN. Before the Department can get started, for instance, on the building of a dam to furnish power or water or both, is it incumbent upon you as the Solicitor to say all the laws of the land have been adhered to and the project has the green light from the Solicitor's office?

Mr. GARDNER. As a theoretical matter-no; as a practical matter, a lawyer somewhere passes on it.

As a theoretical matter, I am responsible; but as a practical matter, I do not ordinarily pass on that lawyer's work.

Mr. GARDNER. He is either in my office or he is in the chief counsel of the Bureau's office, and I would be misleading you very badly if I gave you the impression that I knew enough myself to pass on all these things. I do not. It is just the particularly importantparticular law questions that I get into.

Mr. JENSEN. The attorneys in each of these branches of the Department of the Interior are schooled in the branch in which they are employed?

Mr. GARDNER. They know their own law.

Mr. JENSEN. And you take their word in matters pertaining to their particular branch?

Mr. GARDNER. That is too broad, sir. For the routine work, I do. I control their-in cooperation with the Bureau chief counsel

control their personnel, who is appointed. I am satisfied they have good lawyers there.

As far as I am personally concerned, I probably do not get mixed into it unless it is of sufficient importance for the Secretary himsel to be concerned with it, or will be at some time or other.

I would like to know a lot more than I do what goes on in the Department; but I am only one man, and a very ordinary man, and 1 cannot do it; so I have to confine myself to what I think are going to be the main questions, and I have to rely on the subordinates in my office and the chief counsel's office for the bulk of the work.

It works out pretty well-not many mistakes, and I gather some of the more serious mistakes have been made by the Solicitor personally Perhaps it should all be handled that way.

Mr. JENSEN. You are very modest, and I know you try to do a good job, and I can see that you do have great responsibilities.

Mr. GARDNER. I have been around the Government a good bit, and I have never seen any law practice as varied as the Interior Department, of course.

Mr. JENSEN. Having served on this committee 4 years, I can understand the scope of the problems in the Department of the Interior.

I can really understand that the Solicitor's office has plenty of headaches and a lot of responsibilities, and I know this committee wants to give you the help you need to do the job properly; no more, no less.

Mr. GARDNER. I am sure of that, Mr. Congressman.

Mr. JENSEN. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Do you have anyone on the pay roll who is not actually performing work essential to your activities? Mr. GARDNER. No.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. If you were ordered to place someone on your pay roll by the Secretary of the Interior whom you had reason to believe, or even suspected, was not qualified to perform the work for which he or she was to be appointed, would you do so without protesting?

Mr. GARDNER. No.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. If anyone were placed on your pay rol at the direction of the Secretary of the Interior, or anyone else, and performed no essential work, for which they were paid, would you permit them to remain on your pay roll for 4 years and 11 months o for even a shorter period of time?

Mr. GARDNER. No.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. All right. Thank you.

DIVISION OF TERRITORIES AND ISLAND POSSESSIONS Editor's Note: The general statement of Mr. Edward G. Arnold may be found on P. 7171 STATEMENT OF EDWARD G. ARNOLD, DIRECTOR, DIVISION 01 TERRITORIES AND ISLAND POSSESSIONS

SALARIES

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. The next item is the "Division of Terri tories and Island Possessions.' The summary of the estimate will be inserted in the record at this point.