EDUCATION OF INDIAN CHILDREN IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS I also hoped that we would eliminate some of these Indian schools where it is possible for the children to attend white schools. I wonder if you have done anything in that respect. Mr. BROPHY. So far as the general policy is concerned, the Indian Service wants to get the children into the public schools. Now, there are many areas where there are not any schools for the children other than for the Indians. Mr. JENSEN. I realize that fully, but there are a lot of places where certainly these Indian children could attend white schools, and we could save this money that is used for Indian schools in those particular places. Certainly there are a lot of places where that could be done. Mr. BROPHY. If there are any places like that we should get them into the public schools. The Director of Education has been instructed to that effect for years. That has been the policy over the years. I have discussed it with him and he fully agrees with that position, that the children should go to non-Federal schools wherever it is possible to get them in. It is a very difficult and complex problem to work out. You cannot do it in a year. You cannot do it in 2 years. Mr. JENSEN. You have to start some time or we will never get it done. Mr. BROPHY. That is right. The Indian Service has already started it. My recollection is that approximately half of the Indian children are in public schools other than Federal schools, and for that service rendered by the various States, counties, and school districts the Indian Service gets appropriations to pay the tuition. You see, you have the fundamental expense of education. I take it that everybody in the United States agrees that there ought to be public education, and the total cost of doing that has to lay somewhere. Mr. JENSEN. We should get these children more or less amalgamated with the rest of the citizens so that they will finally say, "Well, we do not want to be wards of the Government any more. We are no different from any other Americans." I think that that is the important thing for them to do get to the point where they will say, "We want our freedom; we want to be like everybody else in America." The quicker we work toward that end the quicker we are going to be able to emancipate all Indians and do away with the Indian Service. We cannot expect to continue forever with the Indian Bureau. It was in 1492 when Columbus discovered America, and we have still got the Indian wards under Government protection. It just does not make sense. We cannot do it all at once, I realize that. Here you come in and ask for $12,000,000 more than you asked for last year. Some of it, as I say, is for construction of things that we have to do. I had hoped that some functions would be eliminated this year and you could bring in a sort of revised set-up to that end. I know that you have been working hard. I know that you have a big job. Mr. BROPHY. I want to assure you that if I could have come in to this committee and conscientiously laid before you a request for lower funds than we got last year I would have been about the happiest man in the world. I do not like to take a beating on presenting these increased items. All I can do is to say to you that I have inspected them. I have combed them with a fine comb, and I think it is my duty to present them to you because I think they are necessary. ACQUISITION OF LAND Now, with respect to the acquisition of land; that is $1,000,000 out of this $12,000,000. Mr. JENSEN. Where is that land? Mr. BROPHY. New land to be purchased for the Indians so that they can become more nearly self-supporting. Mr. JENSEN. You are going to have an awfully hard time selling me on the idea that we should purchase more Indian land. I am going to tell you right now you are going to have to put up a better argument in that respect than I think anybody can put up to convince me that we have to buy more land for the Indians or for anybody else. Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. For the record, tell us generally where you want to buy this land. Mr. BROPHY. It would be largely for the acquisition of land which already belongs to the Indians but which is in heirship status. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. JENSEN. It seems that everytime we have an emergency in this country the only way we can get out of it is to spend a lot of money. When we do that, the first thing we know we are in another emergency. In order to get out of that emergency we have to spend still more money. It is a vicious circle. There is some other way, certainly, to straighten this thing out than to buy up more land. This Government already owns about a fourth of the land in the whole United States and the Indians own more land than they can possibly farm and farm right, or more land than they will ever farm. I am going to be frank with you and say that I am not ready to spend $1,000,000 to buy up more land for the Indians when I know that they have more land now than they can possilbly till to advantage. So far as I am concerned, you are going to have to find some other way to solve this problem that you just related off the record, other than to purchase more land. You are going to have to find some other method of doing it because there is some other way, certainly. Mr. BROPHY. I know that you will not make up your minds on this feature until we furnish the details. Mr. JENSEN. I will be glad to listen to reason. I hope I am still that fair-to listen to argument and reason. ADEQUACY OF APPROPRIATIONS FOR INDIAN SERVICE Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Mr. Jensen has raised a point that seems to me to be basic. It has never been fully answered. I do not know if this is the time to do it, but your question regarding continuing requests for increases is a valid one. The basic misunderstanding is this, I think: You assume that at some time the Indian Service had an adequ propriation to do a 100-percent job. If you take the figures we have asked, which will show the number of Indians w ceived direct benefits, I think you will be in a position to percentage of the job that has been done currently. ap I recall last year the same question came up, and if I remember rightly, I made the statement that we had in the last 10 or 11 years made loans for rehabilitation to approximately 13,000 Indians. Assume for the moment there are 60,000 or 70,000 Indian families. On that basis it will take us five times 10 years to get around and make loans to the rest of the families that need loans. I think that kind of picture is what needs to be before you. We are saying to you every year that there are Indian children out of school for one reason or another. We are saying to you that there are Indian families who need homes. Probably at this moment there are at least 10,000 Indian families who have no decent homes who are living in conditions for which the Indian Service is criticised by committees of Congress. If we had an adequate appropriation as a base, I think your complaints about increases would be wholly justified. Actually, what we are doing is spreading our services very thin over the Indian country. Mr. JENSEN. Of course, Mr. Zimmerman, we hear that from every department and bureau and agency of the Government-if we just had enough money we could bring the Department into the most utopian condition imaginable. Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I am not arguing to have a utopia, but I would argue that certain results could be accomplished. When you refer to the discovery by Columbus and all of that, bear in mind that for 150 years the policy of the Federal Government went in one direction and the contrary policy has been in effect scarcely 15 years. PERSONNEL FOR 1946 AND 1947 Mr. DWORSHAK. Mr. Commissioner, could you give me your authorized personnel for 1946? I think you mentioned that previously. Mr. BROPHY. I believe that I can give that to you, Mr. Dworshak. Mr. Fickinger will give you that analysis from a tabulation. Mr. DWORSHAK. All right, and do you also have available the total number that you are asking for in the 1947 bill? Mr. FICKINGER. Mr. Dworshak, the number of man-years of permanent positions in 1946 was 8,213.6. Mr. DWORSHAK. 8,213.6? Mr. FICKINGER. Yes, sir, 8,213.6. Mr. DWORSHAK. That is for 1946? Mr. FICKINGER. Yes, sir. Mr. DWORSHAK. How many would you have for 1947? Mr. FICKINGER. For 1947 we will have 9,265.3. Mr. DWORSHAK. Your personnel runs about 10 percent over the man-years, or close to it? Mr. FICKINGER. The number of positions which represent the increase is 1,140 positions, approximately, which I mentioned before. NUMBER OF INDIAN EMPLOYEES Mr. DWORSHAK. As I recall it, you said you have about 3,400 Indian employees currently? Mr. FICKINGER. Yes, sir; that is correct. Mr. DWORSHAK. Are you running behind on your recruitment, or are you 100 percent up to your authorized strength? Mr. FICKINGER. We went considerably behind during the war. Mr. DWORSHAK. I mean currently. Mr. FICKINGER. Currently we are running very well except for some personnel in the Health Division-nurses and doctors. ADDITIONAL PERSONNEL REQUIRED BECAUSE OF 40-HOUR WEEK Mr. DWORSHAK. Out of the 1,130 new positions you are requesting for 1947, how many do you think are necessary to absorb the return to a 40-hour week? Can you give us that figure? Mr. FICKINGER. 687. Mr. DWORSHAK. Of the 1,130 new positions requested 687 you justify on the basis of the Bureau's requirement in changing from the 48-hour to the 40-hour week? Mr. FICHINGER. That is correct; yes, sir. NECESSITY FOR INCREASES FOR 1947 Mr. DWORSHAK. Mr. Commissioner, I want to add to what has been said by the members of the committee that, while you have been on the job only a year, and have been confronted with many critical problems that we all have confidence in your desire to and in your ability to streamline the Bureau of Indian Affairs and to economize and get greater efficiency. Likewise, you pointed out that we must determine whether or not we shall build roads and take care of other capital investments which were more or less eliminated throughout the war period, but the fact remains that you are asking for a sizable increase. I know that you must have a certain amount of money to do an efficient job, and yet I am wondering whether if we were to decide that you should be able to get along on about the same amount of money that you had in the fiscal year 1946, could you not take off your coat and go to work and do a pretty decent job? Mr. BROPHY. You certainly would get little more done than was done in 1946. There has been, Mr. Dworshak, a great lag in taking care of government buildings and necessities at the various reservations. Now, I think I could take my coat off all I wanted to, but I could not build a road. Mr. DWORSHAK. Unless we gave you the money. Mr. BROPHY. Yes, unless you gave us the money. In other words, I take it that the problem that is going to confront the committee is the problem that confronted us are these things essential and necessary at this particular time? I came to the conclusion that they were. I therefore felt that it was my duty to submit this matter to the committee. Mr. DWORSHAK. Well, I believe you are justified in making that defense of this presentation, and I am sure that you feel that every dollar you are asking for can be used to good advantage if it is concluded that the work ought to be done during the coming fiscal year. I agree with you. Mr. BROPHY. If we do not get the money we cannot do the work. Mr. DWORSHAK. I was referring primarily to the personnel. You know, there has been too much of a trend on the part of Federal employees, and too much of a feeling that because of the excessive wartime expenditures of Government that there is no need for economy, and that it makes little difference whether we run in the red or not. I am sure that you do not subscribe to those sentiments, and that you feel that administrators ought to stress at all times the imperative need of greater efficiency and greater economy. That is a thing that is most essential in these Government agencies downtown, and I have confidence that you, as Commissioner of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, realize that and that you want to do a real job along that line. Mr. BROPHY. Yes, sir; I do realize it and I have done it. I have stressed continuously the necessity for us being most frugal in any expenditures. I consider that appropriations are trust funds and are to be expended only on that theory. Mr. DWORSHAK. It is not necessary for me to remind you that the President recently sent a message to Congress in which he urged the balancing of the budget as soon as possible, probably in the fiscal year 1948, and that even in this morning's papers there were dispatches in reference to a joint group of the Senate and the House which has indicated that it is pressing to do everything within its power to see that the budget is balanced at an early date. So, it brings us right back to this, face to face with this fact, that the only way we can get a balanced budget is either by having greater Federal revenue or retrenching on Federal expenditures, and the only way that we can cut down on expenditures is to appropriate less money, and that is a real job facing this committee. It is not that we lack sympathy with the particular Bureau you represent, or the projects that you think are so essential, but the fact is we cannot economize and make a balanced budget unless we actually reconcile revenue with outgo, and in doing that we, necessarily, have to cut appropriations and, subsequently, the expenditures of the Federal Government, and I am sure that you will keep that in mind throughout this hearing and in the fiscal year 1947 in your Bureau. SALARIES AND EXPENSES, BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Now, Mr. Commissioner, beginning with your first item on page 5 of the bill for salaries and expenses, Bureau of Indian Affairs, please insert in the record at this point the summary of the estimates. (The justification is as follows:) Salaries and expenses, Bureau of Indian Affairs Appropriation act, 1946. Proposed transfers in 1947 estimates: From "Salaries, Bureau of Indian Affairs". None "General expenses, Indian Service". +$691,760 "Agriculture and stock raising among Indians". "Maintaining law and order on Indian reservations”. +80, 900 +8, 580 +5,000 "Irrigation, Indian reservations". "Revolving fund for loans to Indians and Indian corpora- +13, 400 +34, 097 "Indian schools, support" "Construction, etc., irrigation systems, Indian reservations” +10, 800 +15, 110 "Administration of Indian property". "Conservation of health among Indians”. +64, 300 +23,800 +5,000 +16,000 +16, 012 984, 759 |