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of capital, it has been found that in order to get them to make the investment the maximum period has to be allowed.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Do you have any knowledge as to the original amount of capital used by Mr. Hamilton when he began his operations in Yellowstone?

Mr. DRURY. We would have to furnish that information for the record.

Mr. DWORSHAK. You do not have any idea?

Mr. DRURY. No.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Do you know what his total capital investment is today?

Mr. DRURY. That we will also have to furnish for the record.

Mr. DWORSHAK. You do not have any idea?

Mr. DRURY. No.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Do they furnish reports to you annually so that you know what their gross business is?

Mr. DRURY. Yes.

Mr. DWORSHAK. You do not know what his gross business was? Mr. DRURY. Those figures may be in the hearings for last year. We can furnish that information.

Mr. DWORSHAK. What about his net? Do you know what he paid to the Park Service for his particular concession?

Mr. DRURY. We will have to furnish that.

(The information requested is as follows:)

Mr. Hamilton started operations in Yellowstone National Park with no capital investment. In 1915 he purchased a store in the park for $30,000, giving notes for the entire amount. His investment in the bathhouse on December 31, 1943, when the contract expired, was $15,281.70. The stores are operated by Hamilton Stores, Inc., a corporation formed by Mr. Hamilton. The net worth of the corporation on December 31, 1914, was $295,093.42, making a total investment of $310,375.12 for both operations. The gross, receipts of the corporation were $172,895.52 in 1944. The total expenses were $159,249.38, leaving a profit of $13,646.14. The francise fee paid to the Government for 1944 was $4,666.91.

Mr. DWORSHAK. You are inclined to believe that it is more or less comparable to the Yosemite contract?

Mr. DRURY. I would not know without seeing the figures but I believe that the payments were on a different basis and were proportionately larger.

Mr. DWORSHAK. It just occurred to me that while it is very difficult to find out anything definite, Uncle Sam does get a very small amount for what we must recognize as being almost monopolistic rights in these parks, and in this instance in Yellowstone Park in 1941 there were 581,761 visitors. It seems to me that where these visitors stay from a day to several weeks, and almost in every case spend money in these stores operated by concessionaires, the Government would derive more than one-half cent net return from each visitor. That looks ridiculous to me. I know it does not appear to be a sound business proposition. Do you think so?

Mr. DRURY. Well, as I say, that half-cent figure would have to be subjected to analysis to see what it means, but as far as the general principle is concerned, the National Park Service has for years contended for an investment by the Government of a sufficient sum of money to provide all of the physical plants, and the establishment of short-term contracts which can be analyzed and reviewed so that while fair compensation is paid to the operating companies, which might

be either private corporations or nonprofit distributing corporations, the public would get the primary benefit in the form of lower rates. Mr. DWORSHAK. I see your point. It is a joint responsibility between the Park Service and the concessionaires, ostensibly, for the benefit of those who visit the parks.

Mr. DRURY. So far as we are concerned, it is not only ostensibly, but sincerely in the interest of the visitors.

Mr. DWORSHAK. That is your primary concern?

Mr. DRURY. That is our primary concern, and the only incidental matter which is of importance, of course, is the question of being fair to these investors of private capital in concessions that serve the public.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Of course, you do not know whether the vast investments which the concessionaires have in Yosemite and Yellowstone and other parks have been paid for from the profits which they have made in the operation of these concessions.

Mr. DRURY. Pretty largely that is so, and as we look at it now, it would have been very much better if the Government had adopted the policy of making the initial investment. We feel that it is not too late for the Government to undertake that.

Mr. DWORSHAK. I do not know if that is necessary if contracts have been negotiated to protect the Park Service. I think that you should keep in mind that there is a monopolistic right involved in these concessions, and in view of that, while you want prices to remain on a low level, nevertheless, Uncle Sam is entitled to some consideration, and I believe that you will agree with that?

Mr. DRURY. I will agree with that absolutely.

Mr. DWORSHAK. The reason that I brought that out is to not only supplement what Mr. Rooney has said, but because you are asking for a lot of additional funds. You anticipate that you will have an all-time peak next year, or close to 25,000,000 visitors in the parks. You visualize in the postwar period that the recreational facilities provided for the parks are going to make an unusual appeal to Americans, and that you expect an accelerated traffic in the parks.

Now, I just question whether it is justifiable for the committee to give you a lot of increased appropriations unless we have some assurance that you are going to try to adopt more businesslike policies. I do not mean you personally. I mean the Park Service. I realize that you have been connected with it only a few years, and we cannot hold you responsible for the blunders of your predecessors. Mr. DRURY. I want to be responsible for my own blunders.

Mr. DWORSHAK. How long have you been with the Park Service? Mr. DRURY. Five years.

Mr. DWORSHAK. We could not hold you responsible for anything that was done 15 or 25 years ago, could we?

Mr. DRURY. No. But I can readily understand the reason for some of these actions that today in the light of hindsight appear not to be entirely advantageous is because they were taken in an entirely different period under different conditions.

Mr. DWORSHAK. It is apparent that some mistakes have been made. Mr. DRURY. I do not think there is any doubt about it.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Is it not reasonable for this committee, responsible for making these appropriations this year, to demand closer scrutiny and a reexamination of these contracts to determine whether some

readjustment can not be made which would be to the interest of Uncle Sam as well as for the visitors in the parks?

Mr. DRURY. I agree with you.

Mr. DWORSHAK. And not permit the concessionaires to have most of the consideration.

Mr. DRURY. So far as the National Park Service is concerned, the concessionaires have not had the primary consideration.

Mr. DWORSHAK. You do not think so?

Mr. DRURY. No, sir.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Well, I do not know. I have not examined their books and I do not know much about what they have done, but you admitted a few minutes ago that you think they have built up their capital investment and though you do not know what it amounts to in Yellowstone or Yosemite-you are going to put that in the recordapparently they must have made a lot of profit to build up the huge capital investments which they have today.

Mr. DRURY. Well

Mr. DWORSHAK. That, on the face of it, shows that they have been enabled to make what would be consideerd by the average businessman an unusually large profit at the expense of the Government That is not a debatable question, I would think.

CONCESSIONS BRINGING LITTLE OR NO RETURNS TO INVESTORS

Mr. DRURY. Of course, there were some of the concessions where there have been large capital investments and practically no returns to the investors.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Where, for instance, in the National Parks?

Mr. DEMARAY. Glacier National Park and Zion and Bryce Canyon National Parks.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Where the Union Pacific operates concessions? Mr. TOLSON. They have never made a profit.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Because of the huge investments they have made? Mr. TOLSON. Because of the huge investments and the number of people visiting those areas who use their facilities.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Maybe they are more interested in stimulating railroad traffic than they are in making profit out of the operation o their hotels.

Mr. DRURY. That is about all they have gotten out of it.

Mr. DWORSHAK. How about Glacier National Park? What is th current status of that?

Mr. DRURY. They are not earning a net profit. They have bee practically shut down.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Who is operating that?

Mr. DRURY. The Great Northern Railroad.

Mr. DWORSHAK. Except where the railroads are operating co cessions in national parks, under the policies which have been in effe practically all of the concessionnaires are making very sizable profit Mr. DRURY. NO. The Rainier National Park Co., for instance, w in the red. It sold some surplus property this last year for emergen housing and it has been in the black, I think, for the first time in ma:

years.

Mr. DWORSHAK. That seems unusual, that you should have son concessionnaires making money and others losing money.

not treat them all on the same basis?

Do y

Mr. DRURY. It just brings out what I said, the conditions are different in different locations and in different parks.

Mr. DWORSHAK. What do you mean by "different"-the number of visitors?

Mr. DRURY. The number of visitors and the amount of patronage of the hotels and lodges, the length of the season, the skill of the management, and there are a great many other factors that enter into it.

Mr. DWORSHAK. I do not think that I will pursue this line of questioning any more. But I want to express my personal interest, not only in trying to maintain good service for visitors to our national parks, but in seeing that Uncle Sam and the taxpayers are not called upon to provide funds that might ordinarily come from a share in the profits of the concessionnaires who operate in these parks. Mr. DRURY. Yes; I agree with that, of course, and we will scrutinize every contract as it comes up for renewal.

Mr. DWORSHAK. I hope that you will do something about it, Mr. Drury. That is all.

Mr. JONES. I call the committee's attention to the hearings, pages 436 to 446, for the fiscal year 1942, which took place in the spring of the calendar year 1941 in regard to these concessions. At that time only Mr. Johnson, the chairman, and I were members of the committee that are still here today. At that time I asked Mr. Demaray a question in connection with the amounts paid to concessionaires by the guests. I said:

I believe that you said they were supposed to pay 25 percent to the Government? Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir; that is, 25 percent of the net profit in excess of earnings amounting to 6 percent.

Now, as I take it, that was the general policy of the Department of the Interior, was it not?

Mr. DEMARAY. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JONES. Now, at that time, at pages 436, 437, and 438, there were listed some 75 different park concessionaire contracts, of which 34 have now expired. I wonder if you can tell me whether or not of those 34 they have been renewed by the same people or the same corporations.

Mr. DEMARAY. We can get that.

Mr. JONES. Then, on page 446, I asked Mr. Demaray this question: Do you have available, so that you can put it in the record, the salaries that are paid to the executive officers in each of the concessionnaire companies? Then there was put into the record a list of the officers in the different parks.

SALARIES PAID TO OFFICIALS OF CONCESSION COMPANIES

Would you now put a table in the record showing the salaries again for that same period, and for the latest period for which you have information?

Mr. TOLSON. I have that list brought up to 1944. This particular table covers the years 1941, 1942, and 1944, which shows the salaries paid to the principal officers of the concessionnaires in the national parks having salaries of $5.000 or over. Shall we introduce this statement into the record at this point?

Mr. JONES. Yes.

(The table referred to is as follows:)

List of principal officers with annual salaries of the larger concession operations in the national parks, 1941, 1942, and 1944

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